Episode 009 - Guest Interview: Evie the Economist
We welcome economics professor and author Evie Adomait on the show today to talk about the art market, how economics is a lot of pictures and storytelling, and why it makes sense to curate your friend portfolio.
Listen, follow and review us on your go-to podcast directory: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | Google Podcasts
Show Notes
-
Guest: Evie Adomait is the Assistant Professor of Economics and Faculty Advisor in the Department of Economics and Finance at the University of Guelph.
Evie’s books:
are at the University of Guelph bookstore.
American Banker article on tax evasion.
Bloomberg article on bank burnout.
Euromoney article on art lending.
Art for Your Ear podcast
The Great Women Artists podcast
Artist Brenda L Murray
Homework:
Make friends with someone in another industry, and curate your friendships so you have diversity of thought.
Rate, follow, like, or share The Art$ with a friend.
We would love to hear from you! Email us your questions and ideas at podcast at artbymegan dot com
-
Friend: Welcome to The Arts, a brand new podcast about art and money. I've spent my career managing at some of the world's largest financial institutions. So I can't tell you my name, but trust me, talking about money is my jam.
Megan: And I'm Megan, I'm an artist and a teacher. And now co-host of this amazing podcast. We're having this conversation because we came to a realization. We have no idea how the other person spends her workday.
Friend: Or her money. So let's chat about it.
Megan: Okay. On today's show. We are talking with, wait for it, and trust us that we're all in this together and it's going to be fine, an economics professor.
Friend: Yes. It was inevitable. Next to math or finance, economics is one of those anxiety causing subjects that need some demystification. And I know just the person to help us with that. She wasn't my professor, but she is a friend and I did make a few help SOS calls to her when I was trying to eke out an acceptable grade in my economics class.
And she did come through. What about you? Have you ever taken an economics class?
Megan: No, because in college, I can't recall if I actually ever stepped foot into the business school, but there was this like mysterious land, right, of the business school where all these super serious students took their business classes. And I felt like I wasn't good enough..
I don't mean that to sound like Megan playing her a little violin outside, you know, but I just didn't think it was my world. I felt like I had no business going in there.
Friend: The business schools are nice. They're usually well-funded, it's a nice place to study.
Megan: I took a marketing class and loved it, which is quite obvious now when I market for fun for my business. But I was terrified about anything related to math. Still am. We're working through it together.
Friend: Yes, we are.
Megan: But like, all right. So the economics professor thing, it's hard for me right now. I'm like scratching myself. Um, could we start with like addition?
Friend: Uh, we could, but I have more faith in you and in our listeners than that, that would be too remedial. Come on. We can do this. Let's go!
Megan: All right. Friends let's do this, but first The Scene.
Friend: The Scene. Okay, so friend, what is trending in the arts this week?
Yes. Well, I'm going to flip it around and tell you what's trending in the finance this
I did a little digging. I was thinking, you know what? We haven't, we've talked a lot about art and artists and art books so on. And I thought that's not... Let me just go for it. We can all handle a little bit of finance news. And so I found a couple of articles that we'll link to to that I thought were an either sort of can be interesting on its own or had an intersection with art and finance. Yep. So the first article is in the American Banker and the headline. I'm totally a headline person, I skim the headlines and then fill in the blanks.
Megan: That's what they're for.
Friend: Right.
Attention grabbing. This is not clickbait. This is just, this is actual finance news. I will say, before I get into talking about any finance news for future episodes. I am not going to identify the bank that I work for.
I get finance news in my inbox every day, and it is a mixed bag, you know, there's something for all the banks. So don't go reading into whatever banks I'm about to talk about. I'm pulling this from like a generic newsletter related to things
Megan: I just thought of the best photo shoot for us. For social media.
Friend: Is it me reading the Financial Times?
Megan: No, it's you reading Architectural Digest or like Art News and me reading modern banker or whatever you just said,
Friend: Oh, I like it. I like it.
Megan: You know, duh, covering our faces cause you're anonymous. All right. Carry on.
Friend: Okay. So the American banker has this article, " Nasty family drama with Bank of America board member exposes the tax risk of gifts." So there's this board member at Bank of America's pretty large bank. And, because of the divorce that is ongoing between his daughter and his son-in-law um, we say tax evasion behavior? Is now making the news. And, it's really like, it's quite dramatic. I would recommend giving it a read. It's about the little notes he wrote to them from, you know, the bank of mom and dad. And like, this is a loan because if you, give someone a gift it's taxed differently than if you give them a loan. And if you get a loan and you pay interest on it, then you don't have to pay tax on and so on. And so anyways, really great article, it is about taxes, but it is well-written, it is dramatic and quite interesting. And I recommend giving it a read.
Megan: Juicy.
Friend: Exactly exactly. The second one for today is this one I thought was interesting because we know that the pandemic has been hard on all sorts of industries. And I have a hunch that our artist friends are a little more in touch with their, you know, what it's doing to their mental health and so on.
Not so much with the bankers, maybe? So this one is in, this was a Bloomberg article, " Wall street firms joined mental health program, fighting stigma". So six of the big banks in the U S have joined a New York based non-profit that works to reduce the stigma around mental health. So the article is around how, you know, bankers are facing burnout. This frenetic pace of working around the clock, never leaving the office, the long hours, the, the deal flow and so on, what that was doing to some bankers and how these six firms are working together with a nonprofit to see how they can introduce best practices and start to acknowledge that, you know, bankers have challenges as well.
Megan: Like they're human. That's good though. I mean, that's progress when we talk about progress a lot related to, women in workplaces.
Friend: Yeah.
Megan: is it's good news.
Friend: So that's a partnership with the national Alliance on mental illness, which I think is kind of Cool. And then the last one I saved the best for last, this one. I'm so excited about. I actually think I might print it. I like paper. I found it online, but I would like to print it and highlight it and keep it in my treasure box.
Megan: That's like your vision of a wild weekend. It's like, I love this article so much. I'm printing it,
Friend: Yes. So in Euro money. and the headline is, "Deutsche Bank's John Arena: art lending is a simple proposition." So there is this banker who works at Deutsche Bank and his sole job is to lend against art as an asset. And it is illuminating. Oh, my goodness. So he works with super or like ultra high net worth clients who have collections in the tens and hundreds of millions.
This is the value of their art collection they can get loans against that art at a rate of 50%. So if a piece is worth 10 million, they could borrow five, because the art becomes the collateral.
Megan: Oh, Oh that is wild.
What if we can get him on the podcast?
Friend: Right.
Megan: You never know. I mean, we, we could shoot an email and see what happens? That's intriguing.
Friend: Yes. is very clear in the article is how passionate this John Arena is about both art and lending. So I thought that was really cool.
Megan: That was a really cool. Okay. I love those. I will print one of those articles as well. I'm not going to tell you which one. I have some art podcasts for our listeners to check out. It feels like, a real disruption of a scarcity mindset to share competitive knowledge. And these are not competitors.
These are very well-established super well-respected, podcasts that have been around forever. So the first one is the Great Women Artists. Have you heard of these or there's the other one, which I love, which is called Art for your Ear, which is kind of a fun title. Both of them are great.
Both of them highlight women. Sometimes male, but mostly female artists, both of the past and current, the Great Women Artists is more of like an art history podcast, Art for your Ears more of interviews with living artists of varying degrees of establishment and success. So it's like a really nice, comprehensive approach to understanding people in our world both of the hosts are great.
So the Great Women Artists is Katy Hessel. We'll, we'll link to all of this. And I say her name like that because she's British and her accent is just so fabulous. And like her mannerisms are, she's like British me. Like she's really intense and like crazy with her reactions. And I just love her enthusiasm.
And then, Danielle Krysa is the host for Art for your Ear. And she is a Canadian and very quirky and funny.
Friend: That's fun. They both sound great. I will check them out. I love to find new podcasts and have new things to listen to while I'm running. Can't listen to us the time. I mean,
Megan: I agree. Hey, I have another topic to talk about. Do you like chocolate?
Friend: Yes.
Megan: I do too.
Friend: What is going on? I know what you're doing.
You're
Megan: I got you.
Friend: You totally got me. I was like do we have a secret sponsor?
Megan: Oh my gosh, I wish
Friend: it, a dark chocolate provider? Cause I am totally in. No, I know what you're doing. You're procrastinating from our main exhibit today.
Megan: This is correct. I'll admit to it, but I want you to understand something about my past. This tactic has been highly effective my entire life. I'm very good at derailing conversations to my advantage, and it was extremely effective in my high school math class, where I would literally distract the teacher with whatever I had available in my arsenal of tools that day. And then I would scamper down the hallway to my secret hideout, the art room. And the pre-calculus teacher was quite, pleased with my absence. Sometimes.
Friend: Probably some of the other students as well.
Megan: They were like, get her out, let her stay in the art room.
Friend: Just send her to art.
Megan: No, but you know, I won, I won, they told me you're not loving this class. Are you? And I was like, you are correct. Could I please take APR? And they were like, fine.
Friend: What's AP?
Megan: is like in America, we do these classes called AP where you are taking college credit, but while in high school,
Friend: Okay. So what does AP stand for?
Megan: Advanced Placement.
Friend: Okay, so it means your smarty pants and you're..
Megan: Art Professional.
Friend: Art professional, in a hurry, to get ahead. Okay.
Megan: Yeah. So I escaped.
Friend: So you escaped, but, uh, you did not distract me. I will not be distracted. We have our guest waiting in the wings here. She's lovely. You're going to love her. She has a way of making economics interesting and accessible, and I think we could all use some of that. So let us be on our way to economics 1 0 1.
Megan: We can do it.
Friend: Yay.
The Main Exhibit. I'm very pleased to, introduce our guests on the show today, Evie Adomait. Evie is an Assistant Professor of Economics at the University of Guelph, which is in Guelph Ontario. Evie is also the co-author of the fantastic book cocktail party economics.
Megan: Welcome. We're so excited and honored to have you with us today.
Evie: No problem. I'm happy to be here.
Friend: Evie also happens to be one of my very first bosses. She hired me to keep her children alive.
Evie: Yeah. You taught my kids to ride a bike.
Megan: Oh,
Evie: I couldn't, do it cause they kept falling but you were quite heartless. So it was good.
Megan: Sometimes you need a neutral third party.
Evie: Yeah, they'll let the falls happen. Get up. It's okay. You can do it.
Megan: Yeah.
Evie: The ...other thing that you did that I think actually affected my oldest one, particularly as you taught them how to play monopoly. So I, I think you have some finance definitely in your background because you were, you played to win.
Megan: Oh, my gosh. That's so on brand for this podcast.
Friend: It really is. We had multi-day very complicated monopoly games.
Evie: Yes.
Megan: Of course, of course you did. All right. Well, my friend here has told me a little bit about you and your book, and we did a major high-level bio in our intro, but I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about how you got to where you are and if you're really good at math.
Evie: I'm not bad at math. Uh, yeah, my math skills are, are fine. So they're, they're good enough. I can learn what I need to learn to use. I guess what happened is my life was very much, saying yes, a lot to things that took me on trails that I never anticipated when I was younger, no one ever told me I would be an economist.
I didn't even know what that was. So I think what happened is I was offered things along the way and I just kept saying, yeah, so I'll try that. Sure, sure. And then next thing you know, I was asked you want to try grad school. Sure, sure. And there was a lot of times when I graduated in a recession. And so I remember the chair of the economics department said to me, so what are you gonna do next?
I said, oh, I, I think I might try to go to teacher's college, but it was a recession and I had no money and I had student loans and he said, oh, well, why don't you come here and go to grad school, we'll pay you. I thought, well, that's how it's okay. And so I ended up going in that pathway and I loved it.
So my career is a little different than most academics in that I never did do a PhD, which you can't have my job anymore without a PhD. And so I just kept staying under the radar and getting hired on continual contracts. And my philosophy was I would go into the Chair and say, okay, what can I do to make myself invaluable to you so you don't fire me? And they would just tell me what they need say, consider it done. And I would, I just became good at collaboration, making things happen. And then, the University of Guelph unionized. And by that point I had been working for 18 years and they said you can't fire her so then they had to offer me a secure appointment. And then after that happened, I felt so guilty because my pay went up so much that I said, okay, I better do something more. I just felt really guilty. And so I, um, decided to write a book, called Cocktail Party Economics to, and partly it was, it was, motivated by me going to a women's retreats.
And all these women started asking me questions and I realized they feel dumb and they're not dumb. They're smart people, they just don't know about this. That's all. It's not that they're dumb. But what they're asking me takes more than a five minute conversation. So I decided to write a book to kind of lay the groundwork.
And then, because I realized working in a silo makes you not able to communicate. I have a very good friend, Richard Miranda, who was an English major, very creative guy. And I said, do you want to partner with me because I need this to be accessible. And so we, I wrote the book and he basically, commentaried it he would do things like he would block call sections.
This is boring. Why? Why should I care? Oh, okay. I guess I should make it more interesting. So I was really pleased with how the book turned out because it's some, somebody commented once. It's like a, a chick economics.
Megan: I mean, it's rare. They don't exist. So you tapped into a market that needed it.
Friend: What I love about the book is how, how intentional you are about trying to make economics accessible. And I think that aligns really closely in what you've just said about like the topic, making people feel dumb. I think that's something that Megan and I both experienced in our fields. And that's what we're trying to do with this conversation is make it so that women don't feel dumb when they talk about art and when they talk about finance. So I think there is some similarity there in, in what we were all trying to do for our women.
Megan: I love that you did that. And I love that it was inspired by a women's retreat. Like how cool, what are, it's just like such an interesting road that your life has taken. That's so interesting.
Friend: Did that tie back to feeling bad about the pay? Was there some link between writing the book and.
Evie: Yeah, I, decided I needed to step up my game to do more because I think one of the things in economics is we kind of, do marginal costs, marginal benefits. So when I was making less money, even though I was on contract, I wasn't killing myself. I was realizing they're getting value for what I do. But then when my pay went up, it went okay.
I have to create more value because I'm getting paid more because what I was doing was worth the money that I was getting paid. But now I was getting more like my pay almost doubled overnight. Like it was pretty major. And so I went, oh, okay. What am I going to do to be more valuable? I actually wrote it in the summer and pretty well I think I ended up with carpal tunnel and I like shoulder issues. And I, and I said to myself, I will never do that again, it was physically horrible.
Megan: I've heard that from a lot of authors that it's grueling. And I feel like there's this misconception that if you're a writer, you're like this tortured, but you know, fulfilled human smoking cigarettes at a cafe in Paris, you know? But it's like, you're just like crunching information out of your brain. Like Shroder from the peanuts, you know, just all day in the same position. It's too
Evie: Yeah. And It's not good for your shoulders. I can tell
Megan: No, no. I mean, I can relate as an artist because my left arm and shoulder, when I work on like a big painting, like the one in the back of here, I mean, I am sore. So I have to, I'm trying to become ambidextrous
Evie: Yes.
Megan: Because it's like, it's really hard on your body.
Evie: Yes, it is.
Megan: Okay. One of our favorite questions to ask people, which is like, sort of the reason we started this podcast is what do you do all day? Because what we're trying to do is sort of remove the mystery from other people's lives. So now we've seen a little bit into your world as a writer, um, with the grueling typing.
But, have a background in teaching. I was a high school teacher for 10 years, so I know sort of what teachers do all day, but I don't know from the professor angle, what to do all day as a professor?
Evie: Well, I have like the best job in the whole world. I have to tell you, I get to work with very smart people. My son often says that mom, you have no idea what the real world was like. You only work with very smart people. I go, yes, I do I work with MENSA subtypes. So I do a lot of, working in a classroom where I teach.
So I, you have to prepare your lectures. You go, you lecture, you set up midterms, you know, you, you structure the court, which is now a lot on, kind of platforms. So we have a particular platform we use where you upload everything. And so this afternoon I will be teaching my class on zoom on Tuesdays and then in person on Thursdays.
And then I'm on a lot of committees. And I also do academic advising in our department and I sit on Senate, so I go to meetings, I sit on a sentate sub committee. So I go to more meetings. I go to a lot of meetings and actually what the pandemic has done has made a lot of those meetings go online, which some point is a relief.
Megan: Yeah.
Evie: The only thing I don't like doing is teaching on zoom. When you have it, like, I have a class of 300 that isn't fun on zoom because you just don't see students. Where in class, it's much more, there's a dynamic relationship that happens between students and yourself. When you're, you know, you're almost a performer. I tell people sometimes being a professor is like dinner and a show like
Megan: It is, it really is,
Evie: you're not this intimate one-on-one feel, I don't know my students' names,
Megan: but you're sort of there to entertain them in a way, right. You're there to say, like, this is economics and you're going to love it. And I hope you do, you know, it's like, it's song and dance.
Evie: Maybe yeah. The good profs try to be semi-interesting you know, but you know, you don't have to.
Friend: Is it a required course for many of the students?
Evie: Oh, yeah. Everybody intro to business has to take intro micro an intro macro. So everybody's taking this course. So I see I've taught the equivalent of a small of a, of a village, like more than 30,000 students in my career. So
Friend: Wow.
Evie: and which is why I actually don't live in Guelph. I, you know, somebody said to me, why don't you move to Guelph because you work there and I go. I can't go anywhere and not run into someone who knows me.
I have to tell you this story. It's sorta funny. I remember my oldest son came to university and he says, mom, I don't think I'm going to tell people we're related. I said, no problem. Don't tell people, were related. And he says, so I might not give people my last name.
I said, no problem. And then the first couple days of classes, he came up to the front of the class. He was in the class. So he was registered in another prof section, but he came to my lectures. And he came up and he called me mom and I went, I thought you weren't going to tech to help people that were related.
He goes, oh mom, I thought you would be a liability, but you're actually an asset.
Megan: he's using the craft of business terminology, you know, like
Friend: He played a, lot of monopoly.
Evie: He did. And he made a fortune tutoring in economics cause he has a 90 plus average. And so once he had his last name, he played that name and used it as a brand.
Friend: That's so funny. Oh my gosh. All right. So have you, you'll see a pattern here on the show. Megan wants to know how we all spend our days and I want to know how we all spend our money.
Evie: Okay.
Friend: So I'm wondering if we start with the latter there. If you could start to help us understand a little bit about economic.
And how that impacts various parts of our life.
Evie: Yeah, well, you know what? Here's the deal. A lot of people will ask me questions. Like in class one guy I wanted to know what he should do if interest rates are going up and I actually made a disclaimer right away, I said, look, it, I'm not here to give financial information to students.
I am not liable for you losing your money. The thing with economists is we study systems. So, how the system works, but you can do fine financially with just following a few simple rules. You don't need to understand the system to do fine. And because we know things like what's called the efficient market theory, nobody is better than anybody else at predicting the future, except if you're an insider and most of us are not insiders. So trying to guess the market is kind of impossible as far as I'm concerned. So I don't even bother to try. You know, I just don't bother. So with terms of my finances, what we did was as soon as I could sign up for the pension plan, smartest move I ever made.
Right. I am going to be set. My pension is fantastic. I have a really good pension. And one of the theories that Professor Taylor came out with Nudge. It's the idea that you nudge people into good behavior without it being super costly. And so things like you have to sign up for the pension and as soon as you can, right. That the employer does it. You have to opt out rather than opting in. All right. That's a nudge that makes you just do it cause you're lazy. So you opt in and the next thing you know, you've saved a lot of. You know, because the thing about saving money is time and interest. And I've been working since 88. So my money has been tied up for a long, long time. And that's means I have a great amount of savings. Also, the government allows you to here to, save and have some tax advantages. So just start with a monthly plan that just makes you save money. And don't think about it. And if you are starting with a small amount of money, try really hard to go with an index fund that covers the broad economy where everyone is trying to guess what's good. And now you're free riding on their knowledge and has low management fees. And there you go, just do it monthly. And don't think about it because I find a lot of times with my friends who are artists, they don't want to think about money. They find it boring. I find it boring. Actually, I don't want to, I don't check my funds all the time.
I think economics is interesting because it's about ideas, but I, think checking my accounts is like, oh no, this is like, why I don't check my funds every day. I, I, I don't want to do that. so simple rules can help you without you having to be an economist.
Friend: Right. Yeah. And we definitely, I mean, we also have a disclaimer, you know, we're not here for financial, accounting, legal, like we're hoping this isn't about. All right. We're not giving advice. We don't even know who's listening. What we're trying, what we're trying to do is make some topics accessible and easy to understand.
So it's like, we were talking to one of our friends the other day and she was like, Oh, my worst subject was economics. You know? And you've probably heard that since 1988. Right. for those people in the room, how do you make economics interesting and important?
Like how do you explain that it's important?
Evie: I mean, microeconomics is about how people make choices. So we're just modeling, we're creating models. So in some ways, I think in pictures. That's how I think, I think in pictures because everything's a graph for me. And so I don't think in words. And so when I'm talking about supply and demand with students, I'm trying to say we're storytelling, we're telling stories, and we're trying to make some guesses about the future.
This, if a particular event happens, knowing how it will affect the picture. So if you're interested, this gives you knowledge can make you feel very, um, you don't need a lot of knowledge and economics to not feel stupid. So that's also a big thing that sometimes people just feel like it's a black hole and they have no idea what this means and intro econ can kind of put structure to it and then it's okay.
You know, it's I guess it would be like someone saying, oh, I, you know, I have no idea what to do for painting. And someone comes along and says, well, let me show you the color wheel.
Megan: Right.
Evie: And now you have, oh, well these are compliment. Oh, okay. I didn't know that if once you know something, then you go, oh, okay. That helps you to think about what the government is doing. And micro and macro or different micro is about individual markets, so you know, the car market, the housing market, how individual markets are responding and then why prices are going up and why sales are increasing and so forth. Macro is more about how the economy as a whole is aggregated. And when it's aggregated, you know, how does the government influence the economy as a whole? And that. That's a very powerful thing to know as well. Like what's the central bank in the U S the Federal Reserve in Canada, the Bank of Canada. What are they doing? Should they be concerned about inflation?
Should they not be concerned about inflation? So again, it's creating structure that makes you go, oh, okay. It doesn't feel like a big mess anymore. It feels like I can see some lines and I can see a frame.
Megan: I'm just really wishing you were my professor. I'm like, all I want to do is travel back in time and take a business course where the professor could explain it to me properly because I just, that's one of my major regrets as a business owner now, like not understanding it at the age of 18 really impacted what I was confident about.
Evie: It is too bad. And I mean, I'm going to tell you that students fall into two groups for me, some who loved me and some who hate my guts. So I think there's a distribution. So I'm not claiming to be a master teacher here. There's others who are much better at it. But I do think it's important, if you're going to take a course, to try to get the guts of it, you know.
Megan: Yeah.
Evie: That's helpful.
Megan: It's interesting.
Friend: So, as an economist, and you've just mentioned, you'd love charts and pictures, we thought you might appreciate some of our own illustrations and graphs. Did you get a chance to look at the money talk? or the money mind grid that we sent over?
Evie: Oh about how you feel a little bit.
Friend: Yeah, where you are like comfort level. And where would you put yourself on the grid? Did either of those resonate?
Evie: I did, but that's yeah. Sort of felt like you're doing a personality test.
Megan: Sorta.
Friend: Yeah, a little.
Evie: Yeah. So I felt like, oh, okay. They're trying to get a sense about how comfortable and I realized, you know, how comfortable am I? I'm very comfortable talking about money, but of course money is usually private. People don't want to discuss their own financial situation.
You know, how much they make. And all of us have made mistakes financially too. And this is the one thing that I think people have to understand: one of the things about owning your own business is that one of the theories and economics is that you should maximize profits, right? and then once people start to experience losses, uh, we have shutdown points or people leave the market, and this is usually true.
It depends on what your next best option is. Your opportunity costs. Okay. So what are you giving up to do this particular venture? But it doesn't take into the count when people are doing it, not for the money, but for the love of it. And so they're going to lose a lot of money and when people are willing to lose a lot of money you need a partner. Who's going to make sure you're not homeless. And I found that when people own their own business, they often can get sucked into being more hopeful, they're over optimistic about how they're going to make a career of this. And, so then you need a plan. And so often the most successful business, typically have partners, people who will ask the hard questions go, what are we doing?
This isn't working, you know? And sometimes the smartest thing to do is to quit. But that's very difficult to do if you love what you do. And so getting, figuring out ways to get paid, to what you love to do, is a skill.
Megan: I just randomly added some personal information here, but I agree with this. So whole heartedly I'm like violently shaking my head because I have had to scaffold my business in such a way where I know I teach still, like I can't escape it. It's just like in my blood. So I know that I'll earn X amount from teaching.
I know that I'll earn X amount from these other partnerships I have. And then the art is a question mark and always will be because the art market is a question mark, but I have allowed it to be part of the general structure of my business, because originally I was just trying to do the art and it was anxiety provoking, to be honest, I couldn't calculate and my tax guys constantly like, but how can you, how come you can't look at trends? There just aren't enough facts. And certain industries are like this, you know, I could have a wild January and then nothing for six months or vice versa. So it's like in order to be a smart business woman, you have to understand that like there has to be a structure in place and I'm so relieved having an expert say that too.
Evie: I think it's, critical because if you don't do that, you're just being hopeful without being realistic. I've seen that over and over and, and after you do this for a lot of years, it's crushing. You know.
Megan: Yeah.
Evie: So you don't want to be crushed, you know, what the joy crushed out of your life because of finances.
So, you know, figuring out how to do things, realistically is important. And also art tends to be what we would call a tournament theory. Very few people make a lot of money and they're all at the top. Right? So it's as thin at the top, but. Megabucks and often with painting too, you have to be dead. Like that's not really helpful, right? You want to enjoy your life. So again, you know, figuring out how to do what you want to do. And it requires, some thought that it's more than just.
with our, we didn't, we're not making a fortunate with our books. Like we did, we didn't hit the market, like Nudge or Freakonomics where they became mega bestsellers, right? We came after them and they had publishers that gave them lots of resources and push and tours. So I, you know, I'm never going to make money as a writer. I didn't even consider myself a writer, a writer, someone who has to write every day. I have friends who do that. I just wrote two books because I had messages I wanted to get out.
But writing is a different breed. They're a different group. And a lot of them have made no money at writing. A lot of my writer, friends, they all are prof's or, or have other jobs because art seems to be there's a layer. There's a lot of people who produce beauty and beauty is different to different people that it's hard to make a living at it. And so you have to be smart. Yeah. And I find it's hard to be smart by yourself. You really need a partner to someone who is going to tell you the truth.
Megan: Yeah. So valuable.
Friend: It's so good. I think a lot of our listeners will resonate with that on the, on the creative business side, you know, it's. Yeah. I like that. Um, scaffolding analogy as well. Megan, I think that's really nice. Can we spend another couple minutes on the art market if possible? Just to sort of help us with a language or an approach I will put my hand up and say, I have no idea what happens in the art room.
like you said, like you don't make money until you're dead and the collectors make more than the artists and the, you know, then you have non fungible things now. And like, I just don't like, does it pay the bills to be in a museum? Like what is happening? How is that? should art be priced and how is it priced? I'm so confused.
Evie: There's two things in economics one is called normative economics, where you actually make statements about what ought to be. And then there's positive economics, which is. Can you test it and prove it, you know? So it's, it's got facts that says, you know, if this happens, the price will go up 20% or whatever, and then you go see, did the price go up 22%?
Yes. So our economists are not great at normative statements. We don't like to say what ought to be. We just say, this is what it is. So if we see a piece of art going for multimillion dollars, it's because there are investors or buyers who value it at that. And normally with art, especially when a person's since dead the supply is now limited, right? They're not going to be making any more art. So we would say that that's an inelastic supply. There's no more coming. And so if suddenly buyers want to buy it, it's just going to drive up the price. So whenever you see pieces that have high prices is because you've got people competing for it. And somehow it has now been viewed as valuable. And why people view it as valuable is because they do Whether they should think it's valuable or not think it's valuable as economists, we go, we're not here to tell you what you want to think is beautiful. But if enough people think something's beautiful, the price is going up. So in terms of art, normally even with most products, uh, inventors for instance, are like artists, but of a different nature. They're not often the ones making money off. Right. So, and, and the ones who are got partners who were on the other side of the fence that help them to work together to protect interests and so forth. And also markets are based on trust. When people talk about the market, they make it sound like it's this cold thing, but when buyers and sellers come together, there's a sense of trust. I want to give you my real thing and I want to trust that you're going to pay me, right? And that you're paying me with something, that I can use.
So we have a whole system of trust, usually in exchanges. What's maybe happened is now we have more global exchanges. We have exchanges that are guaranteeing. So you are willing to give them your credit card. if someone pays you a PayPal, someone is guaranteeing that you're not going to get ripped off.
If you buy this piece of art, it'll get reversed and all of that. So I think that's increased global markets and trust. that's why artists may want to, they just have to create a demand for their art. it.
Friend: Yeah, I've been reading a little bit about how some of the galleries have been essentially playing with supply to force demand upright. So they'll take these new artists and say, only doing. There will only ever be 10 of this collection. And then it will be done and so it's like this churn through of here's a hot artist, here's the 10 items sell boom onto the next artist limited, you know, limited supply limited supply. To me that seems a little artificial, but if your goal is to maximize your income as an artist, it's one way to do it without dying.
Evie: Absolutely. I, yeah, absolutely. I mean, if there are fewer of them and people decide that they like your art and there's only 10, you can, it's like the housing market right now. We're having bidding wars where 20 people are bidding on a house. So once you have a limited supply and you have lots of buyers, you will have multiple people bidding and raising the price.
So it's a smart strategy this is why, you know, paintings usually sell for more than a limited edition print, which is sell more for a mass produced print.
Megan: Right?
Friend: Right.
Evie: You're trying to actually the quantity so that prices can go up.
Megan: As a prolific artist, I have a hard time with this. Honestly, I'm really prolific. I have infinite energy for painting. So I have to really consider that.
I mean, I don't have infinite energy for everything. Right. So it has to balance out. I really have been examining this topic or where you say it's like a supply and demand issue, right?
Like you don't want to have too much inventory. And it's funny when I have less inventory on my website, it equals more inquiries.
Evie: Yeah.
Megan: but it's like such a mind game.
Friend: Yeah. because if, if you, if we go back to the Julia Cameron world, that's all about producing, like just flowing and being prolific. And so you get this messaging as an artist saying, you need to produce, produce, like, write all the pages and paint all the paintings. And then from a business standpoint, don't.
Megan: like don't or be prolific, but don't be public about all of it. And I'm learning that from my friend here, my anonymous patron of the arts, because I love to share I'm an extrovert with a capital E X T R O like I am. So I want to tell everyone all the things, but it's like, you don't have to.
Evie: No. And the thing is, it's not paint because you love it. That's true. And then you might want to go through it and curate it and go with which of these are the most marketable and only show those.
Megan: Yes.
Friend: All right, last question for you for me. And then we'll, we'll save some time for Megan and her wonderful questions. I don't want to become known as just someone who only talks about how to get more money and you know, all about the, the earning. I'm more interested in helping with literacy, you know, financial literacy and, and you know, how money flows both ways.
And so I'd like to understand, from people who are also generous with their money, you know, giving of funds, where that comes from, you know, I know you're part of a giving community, a generous church community. So the question for you is, does giving away money. Fit into some kind of a rational economic system or financial management for individuals?
Evie: Sure. Yeah. Yeah, Well, the thing is, this is what we think. They're trying to be as happy as they possibly can given their constraints. That's what microeconomics is. How do people be as happy as they possibly can given their financial or given their constraints, whether it's time or, you know, financial resources and part of that, we call it utility.
So I'm maximizing utility subject to a budget constraint. That's what we would say in a technical sense. And human beings are social people and it makes us happy to see other people do well. So when you are a generous person, you're just saying I'm willing to pay because it makes me happy that I'm giving that you are happy.
You are now part of my utility function. And families are like that. We want our children to be happy. Why would parents, you know, leave massive inheritances for their children when they could have spent every dime in their life and had a great time they do it because their children are part of their utility function.
So it is completely rational to want it, but it just depends on what makes you happy.
Megan: I love that answer.
Friend: Yeah, I love that. I've never thought of it that way.
Evie: Yeah, people can be happy giving money away. So when I give money, I, um, there's a, there's an interesting verse in the Bible says. The Lord loves a cheerful giver, you know? So when you give cheerfully, it's because you are happy, you know, you celebrate the giving and if you don't, if it doesn't make you happy, which is why I review my charities from time to time and go, are they doing what I hope they're doing?
And if I find out they're doing things and I go, Ooh, not so happy about their, you know, Not nice people that I stopped giving. I stopped giving to them so that's why I think monitoring your charities isn't a bad thing because sometimes they've changed over time and maybe you've changed over time.
Like what makes you happy could change? So I think giving is, is part of, a robust society where people actually get happy. Because other people are in their lives.
Friend: I like that.
Megan: such a wonderful financial goal to, to have, as you hopefully do learn to manage money over time. It's like put in that percentage of how much you want to be generous with as part of like a budget. Right. It's just a nice way of, I mean, some churches do this, but also just like, as an individual non secularly, like it's an important way to think.
It's interesting. Okay. Let's chat art real quick.
Evie: Okay.
Megan: You've spent your career doing something that I would consider quite technical, analytical. How do you stay creative in your career or just your personal life?
Evie: Well, I think for me, creative is, I don't know how I would stay creative. It's not necessarily what I produce. It's in my willingness to be friends with a very wide group of people. I think in some ways my creativity has to do with how I on purpose, try to have friends who are creative
Megan: I love that.
Evie: Because I don't have it. but I have a whole group of people in my world who are either very smart or very creative and very interesting. So I think that that's how ideas spark ideas. And so that's kind of where I go but, you know, I wish I was, I wish I could play an instrument and maybe in my retirement, I might, we have a piano here.
My oldest son took piano lessons or I can't draw worth beans, but I have a friend who's a fantastic artist and she does these drawing courses. And I think, well, maybe I could learn, you know, but I don't have a lot of confidence that I'm going to be good at this because, you know, I've tried a few things and realized, Hmm.
Megan: Let me tell you though, that you two are telling me the creative to, have a little more confidence in my economic skills. So I will tell you it's, just, we have to all try something. So like you're trying with all these friendships, it's like, I'm not a great at yoga. I'm not that great. Right. But I've gotten better because I try, like, it's like we have to train ourselves to think this way.
It's it's. just doing a lot of random tasks, you know, hoping for nothing hoping you'll see maybe that you grow up, but over time. So it's not like about the output, like you mentioned.
Evie: Well, one of the things that I had happened is my, I have a friend who's an artist. And I have bought lots of her work. She says, oh, you're one of my best patrons. I go, yeah, I just by art.
And I've made it a plan not to buy mass produced stuff. So I buy original work now. So my house is filled with as much as I can, I try to buy original art. So that way I have supported an artist and I have something unique and beautiful in my house. And I only had that because she was my friend and I was trying to support her. Right. So I think what happens often. Anything in our life and generosity is your friends influence you?
So I have another friend he's the head of a charity. So when I had my 60th birthday, I said, no gifts. I had threw a huge party. I said, this is essentially my 60th birthday, my retirement party and my funeral only I'm here.
So I had speeches and the whole deal, and I said, instead of gifts, I want you to give to this charity, which funds a micro-financing to women in poor. That was my charity. I wanted women to be promoted and I want an, a tied to finance and it was getting loans to women so that they could support their families. And it wasn't charity. Now it was, they had the dignity of work. But that happened because I had this friend who is the CEO of that organization. So I think you need to curate friends, friends are really important.
Friend: And that's what we're, you know, that's, I can say the same thing, Evie, that I am starting to learn about art because of Megan and some of our joint friends who are teaching me and pushing me to be like, you can't just look at numbers all day.
Megan: I mean, it goes in the end versus true to you have to have it like, uh, the model UN uh, friendships, right? Like it's, it can't all be homogenous because you're, I mean, then you're just in a little echo chamber of your own thoughts. Like that's not fun. You have to have input that's interesting or inspiring or makes you a better person.
That's the whole point. Right?
Evie: And I think what happens for me is I have this sort of framework now. My framework is my friends have to be diverse. My Facebook, I don't delete people who have opinions that are different than mine. I'm trying really hard not to be in an echo chamber because I feel like it tells me how the world is thinking, forces me to be more creative.
And so I just feel like be open to people. Who are very different than you finding out what you like about them. And, it isn't always that they're identical to you. So there's something that you'll share, but it doesn't have to be what you do for a living. And so I'm very fortunate and my oldest son actually said this to me.
He goes, you know, one thing, mom is you have a lot of great friends. And I said, yeah, but I look at it. I work at friendship.
Friend: Yeah. There's a quote from Lincoln and it's him saying, you know, I don't like that gentleman very much. I should get to know, him better. I think that's, you know, a little bit that like pick people that you maybe wouldn't have a natural connection with or wouldn't understand and get to know them better.
Evie: Sometimes friendship happens just in, in just having a familiarity. So I've become friends with people from church. Who I would never work with because. They don't work at my work. So I have friends from work. And then I did some thinking about creating a book group. So I created a book group that gave me different friends.
And then we had this other group of friends and that had children all at the same time. And so I think, when you value friendship and you put energy into friendship, that changes what you're going to be interested. Because your friends will bring interesting things to the table and you'll go, oh, so I've been to many art shows.
Let me tell you why, because I'm an artist, but because I have a friend who's an artist.
Megan: I mean as a woman in the arts, I will first say thank you for collecting original art. you have no idea the impact that that makes on any artist's life. So that's huge. the confidence alone, when someone buys an original painting, I mean, I'm, I'm seven years into this and I'm still shocked every time. Right? I'm like, you really want this in your house? Like, it's just, it's shocking and wonderful, but, um, just the ability to, to see the value in something. As we mentioned before, it has variable value, you know, it's, it is a leap of faith to buy original art. So thank you for supporting the arts. It's
very nice of you
Evie: I just think beauty matters and friendship matters. And I remember my friend, the one who's the artist said, why are you buying all this stuff? When if you take a look, there's, there's starting artists who are selling stuff for the same price as you're paying for that. And it's original. And so why are you putting in anything that has been mass produced in your house?
And so I went, okay. I stand rebuked. and at that point on, I made it a point that I only buy original art.
Megan: that's such a good perspective.
Evie: yeah.
Megan: of course it's self-serving but I do really agree wholeheartedly.
Evie: Uh, I don't think it's a self-serving I think it's a perspective that people who aren't artists don't, think about.
Megan: Yeah, well, it's just like supporting any small business. It really matters. It matters on a very micro level. Right. But it can impact people's personal lives and the way that they use their it's a network, right. It's like ripple effect of who you support and how they, you know, work in society. Like it's a huge impact.
Okay. One quick closing thing that we do on this podcast. We're going to go down to the rapid fire section, which is my brain's way of thinking. Are you ready?
Evie: Sure
Megan: Okay. Dogs or cats?
Evie: Dogs.
Megan: Yeah. I could tell Tik TOK or Instagram?
Evie: Instagram.
Megan: Thank you. Also tea or coffee?
Evie: Coffee.
Megan: Me too. Like during this episode.
Meanwhile, I'm times in infinite resource. Okay. Wine or a cocktail?
Evie: White.
Megan: Ooh.
Friend: all year white, no matter what? All right.
Megan: Oh my gosh. You Canadians are wild, Amsterdam or New York?
Evie: Well, I've never been to Amsterdam, so I don't know. I've been to New York. I think. I, would go either place. I don't know.
Megan: Okay. Novel or non-fiction?
Evie: Non-fiction.
Megan: Duh, what was your worst subject in school?
Evie: Physics.
Megan: Interesting. It requires math. So I would love to follow up what, but I can't. What did you think our friend here, who you knew as a young little one would be when she grew up?
Evie: I wasn't predicting. I don't, I didn't have any thoughts about what I thought she would be.
Megan: That's a fair answer. You were just hoping she would nanny her children for more time.
Evie: I knew she was moving beyond that.
Megan: I mean, you find a good babysitter, I can relate. Like you're like don't ever leave me.
Evie: well, the thing is, this is all part of your rapid fire, but when she was babysitting for me, she had such a good time with the kids that I would come home. My house would be like chaos, and I'm a neat person. So I would walk in and then immediately go into stress. Like I needed to clean everything up before I could settle.
So finally I. I can't do this. You're going to have to start tidying up before I get home. So then she advised, vented a game with my kids called vacuum tag. So they would vacuum with each other. I didn't care. I just came home and the place wasn't like, cause I'm a very tidy person. And I, it was like, I, it would be like walking into a hoarder's place. Like I was in shock. So.
Friend: We had fun. I mean, we've got everything out.
Megan: This is shocking news.
Friend: oh, I am a total total mess.
Evie: Yeah. So that's why I, you know, it worked out well because we, I just was able to express, I think we have to do something a little different here.
Megan: Please start vacuuming. Okay. This way you need a full follow-up episode on like our younger selves, but more on that later. Okay. Your favorite artist living or past?
Evie: Oh, Brenda L Murray.
She has such interesting art. I'd love her.
Megan: Well, I can't wait to find out more. And then our last question of the rapid fire section is your favorite female economy or on Is that
Evie: famous female economists. I don't actually have a favorite, favorite economists,
Megan: that's okay.
Evie: really hard to think of a female versus like, I don't have a favorite economists at all.
Megan: Our friends here is Janet Yellen
Evie: Yeah, she was the fed chair.
Friend: She's, like the RBG.
she's like Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
Evie: yeah.
Friend: So she's, she's cool for.
Evie: She's very cool. Uh, but I guess I just like ideas, I don't necessarily need to know who thought of the idea. And, she worked more in sort of the real world, so to speak So she's not sitting with. You know, creating new ideas of a lot of economists that I find really interesting are people who thought of the world differently and it forward in, terms of thought.
Friend: You've got some great profiles of economists in the book, Cocktail Party Economics. I like those sections. So I'm sure there's some there that will be of interest to
Evie: thing is it's been dominated by men. Like there's only one woman who's won a Nobel prize and she was kind of a sociologist economist.
Megan: it was sort of a trick question. I'm sorry to end on a tricky
note.
Evie: no problem. I I have not actually a celebrity
follower. So when people say to me, you know, what famous person would you like to meet? I can't think of anyone I want to meet.
I don't care that people are famous. Like, I really don't care that people are famous. I don't go, oh, I saw, you know, we have a friend between the two of us who actually met the queen, you know? Well, that's great. I'm glad you've got the queen. Perfect. But I don't necessarily want to meet the queen.
I don't care. And so I don't find myself impressed with, celebrity. It just doesn't interest me.
Friend: You can see, we have that in common. I think you could see like Evie taught me a few things along the way, you know?
Megan: She rubbed off on you a little bit. Well, thank you so much for being here today with us. I really enjoyed your answers. A lot of the ways you described studying as an economist is not how I would've these questions.
I really learned a lot. Thank you so much. where can people find you on the internet?
Evie: I asked, my publisher and, basically my books now are. the buy them at the university bookstore at the University of Guelph. So it's no longer sort of on platforms it's local to the University of Guelph. And if you go to the bookstore, they actually sell the books I think are e-books, so they're moving away from physical books. So anyway, if you go to the University of Guelph G U E L P H, which is in how everyone thinks Guelph is spelled and you go to the bookstore on their website and you've just put in my name and, Cocktail Party Economics and the other one is Dinner Party Economics.
Friend: We'll link.
Evie: Yeah. That's the only way to really get my book.
Megan: And then our last question for you, the former teacher in me always asks us at the end of every episode, do you have a homework assignment for our listeners? So something we can work on, follow up on or something to challenge us regarding art or finance?
Evie: I would just, if your audience is mostly artists, just get a friend, who's an accounting type, you know, get a friend, get somebody who can, you know, you can bounce ideas because you can't learn things in a heartbeat. You have to learning takes time. You know, and so it's kind of develop your friend portfolio. That's what I would suggest.
Friend: And I think that works both ways. I would say that to my women in finance as well, get a friend who's an artist.
Evie: Yes, I think that that's a good way to start. It's a small thing, but it's a, that's a good way to expand your world by having a friend, because then their ideas are incarnate, right? They're in a human form and you get to bounce off someone who thinks differently than you and learn from them.
Friend: Love it. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks Evie.
Evie: No problem.
Friend: Um, so Megan, that wasn't so bad.
Megan: Invigorated. I'm not kidding. I feel like I want to go take her class,
Friend: Yeah, me too. You could probably
Megan: like audit.
Friend: Yeah.
Megan: I can't imagine what I would, be like in the chat, just cause I'm a little distracting, but I, I would love her to teach me the ways of thinking about money that she just described to us because it wasn't stressful at all.
Friend: I also like how she was willing to talk with us about the art market and you know, what goes into some demand and pricing, you know, some idea gives us some things to think about. I don't think
to be economist, but I I think it's good for us to be challenged and to, have a new perspective and maybe put a new filter on things.
Megan: Also it's important for people like me who are afraid of a certain topic, which shall not be named to fully engage with humans who are real people and know they're also normal humans, you know, it's like, we don't need to distinguish each other with like these titles, right? Like we're all pretty much very similar and just choose different paths just pursue for our own reasons.
Friend: Yeah. Also already aced the homework.
Megan: I mean,
Friend: We're doing it. We didn't pay her or ask her to say that she just came out with that, like go make friends with,
Megan: opposite human.
I liked that advice though. And I liked her like circle of friendship thing, which is really a life goal of mine. Honestly, when she talked about having opposite friends, I was like, oh, I love that so much because no one wants to have the same people around them all the time, or the same as yourself.
Friend: Isn't it? Yeah. It's not very interesting.
Megan: She's truly a patron of the arts for a friend.
Friend: Yeah. Awesome. All right. Well that brings us to the end of this episode.
Thanks so much to Eddie for teaching us about thanks so much to every here, making economics a little more accessible for us.
until
Megan: then, this is Megan of Art by Megan
Friend: Until when Megan?
Megan: Until then, like literally until you hear my voice again?
Friend: until you hear her voice, it is reassuring to know she is Megan.
Megan: I literally just like skipped part of the.
Friend: I think Until next time it's great. When we don't know what is
Megan: Until then like, instead of like, goodbye,
Friend: Goodbye.
Megan: Just see you, like see you when, see you another time. It's just so abstract.
Friend: same time next week.
Megan: Sure. Yeah.
Friend: All right. Let's keep
Megan: 8:00 AM on Friday.
Friend: that note to my employer. That is not when we're recording.
Megan: No, no, that's just when the apple podcasts as we live.
Friend: Oh, yes, that's true. That is when it
Megan: Yeah. So until then,
Friend: until then, and her friend, your patron of the arts
Megan: wishing you more art.