Episode 008 - Artist in Residence: Amanda Michele Brown
Abstract watercolor artist Amanda Michele Brown is our artist in residence this week. She breaks down all the stereotypes (aced accounting in college, has a highly organized work process, files her taxes early), makes us laugh until we cry, and assigns a double portion of art theory homework.
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Show Notes
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Artist in Residence: Amanda Michele Brown
Follow Amanda on Instagram
Check out Amanda’s website
Book Culture Care by Makoto Fujimura
The recent Lauren Pearce exhibit was at the Adelson Galleries.
Artist Laxmi Hussain
Artist Shirazeh Houshiary
Artist Kathryn MacNaughton
Artist Wassily Kandinsky
Brooklyn restaurant Claro
Homework:
Read The $12m Stuffed Shark by Don Thompson
Read The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction by Walter Benjamin (1936)
Rate, follow, like, or share The Art$ with a friend.
We would love to hear from you! Email us your questions and ideas at podcast at artbymegan dot com
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Friend: Episode eight, Amanda, the Artist.
Welcome to The Arts, a brand new podcast about art and money. I've spent my career managing at some of the world's largest financial institutions. So I can't tell you my name, but trust me, talking about money is my jam.
Megan: And I'm Megan, I'm an artist and a teacher. And now co-host of this amazing podcast. We're having this conversation because we came to a realization. We have no idea how the other person spends her workday.
Friend: Or her money. So let's chat about it.
Megan: On today's show. We were talking about all things, art and creativity with our very first Artist in Residence, Amanda Michelle.
Friend: Yes. We love Amanda. She was there when we floated the idea out loud for the first time. She's the first person that we were like, "Hey, we have this crazy idea. What do you think?"
Megan: She heard it first, like literally.
Friend: Yeah And she did not discourage us. So here we are.
Megan: For that alone she's our guest today. Okay. Friend let's do this, but first The Scene. The Scene.
So friend, what's trending in the arts this week?
Friend: Well, you've been reading all the books, so I decided to pick up a book again. First one, I tried didn't have much for this audience. So the book I've just finished is called Culture Care by Makoto Fujimura. And, it's about how we reconnect with beauty and, care for our culture, which might be obvious from the title it's about cultural stewardship.
Yeah,
as a community, he, he makes some parallels to, um, environmental care and environmental stewardship. something similar, you know, how do we feed our cultures soul with beauty, creativity, and generosity. It was really nice.
Megan: It sounds peaceful.
Friend: it was peaceful.
And so is his art. I wanted it to read you a quick thing here that I thought was relevant. " Often business practice and art making are seen as things at opposing poles on a spectrum of pragmatics and creativity. On one hand business discipline requires convergent decision-making narrowing down to a particular focus and a bottom line in a highly organized system.
And artists on the other hand are divergent thinkers. And they often seem to thrive on uncertainty and are resourceful enough to survive on very little. I recently had lunch with a business leader. This business leader spoke of how bankers after the Lehman brothers collapsed now have to justify their work.
Many bankers became bankers for stability and high income. They are willing to work hard for that, but they previously never had to justify their choice, but now bankers asked, " what do you do" at a party will have to defend their continuing in that profession. I am used to "defending my decision to be an artist in this pragmatic world.
If a banker now has to do the same thing, it occurred to me that a banker and an artist can now have a more meaningful discussion on how they can help each other towards thriving and a vision for rehumanized culture."
Isn't that so good?
Megan: Oh, my gosh is a genius.
Friend: I know. "In such a conversation, the language of care for both business and culture is not only desired, but necessary for all people." Boom. Isn't that great.
It was a really good read. We'll link to it in the show notes.
Megan: I love him.
Friend: Wait, you did, you know him?
Megan: No, I don't know him but I love him now.
I'm like, you know me and Makoto no, but I, I tend to love he's Japanese. I'm guessing. I tend to love the work of Japanese writers. Sometimes people say my art has like an Asian influence, which I personally do not. I've never studied there anywhere. I've never traveled to Asia. Any part of it, I am not Asian, but I do not understand why I'm so like philosophically connected to a lot of their words. It's very interesting to me.
Friend: That is
Megan: It's very peaceful. Yeah. Organic, you know? And so I see that in like some of my paintings.
Friend: I think their use of metals too. From what I've seen,
Megan: the metallics and that whole concept of like repairing broken things with the metal.
Oh my gosh. We could go on a whole Asian art thing.
Friend: Episode 23.
Megan: Asian art with our guest Makoto Fujimura okay. I am not reading books because I run out of time.
That's my hot take. It was going to happen eventually.
Friend: You've had like 40 books in a row.
Megan: Well, I love books, but I'd also read in my Artist's Way that I needed to stop reading to escape doing things, which apparently is a thing artists do. And I was like, Julia Cameron, you bite your tongue. So I've been researching the work of some women artists. Okay. One of them is one of my favorites. Her name's Lauren Pierce. Her work is breathtaking. It's literally glowing. I've never seen it in person, but she just had a gorgeous show in Palm Beach at Adelson Galleries.
And her work is actually part of the collection of Alicia Keys, which we talked about in episode one. She's incredible. We'll link to her in the show notes. She's also very lovely Instagram friends. So I think she's a great human, which we love. I mean, she's, she is, I can almost guess it. The second artist I'm loving is a British artist artist, which has happened. My dentures fell out British artist Laxmi Hussain, try that, go ahead. You try.
Friend: Uh, British artist Laxmi Hussain, no, it's not, it's not possible. I have to take my Invisalign out.
Megan: I'm like I could never keep mine in. Okay. So anyways, I love this excerpt from her bio Laxmi has been drawing for as long as she can remember as a child in London, she wouldn't lose hours after school with sketching on the counter, in her dad's corner shop, but it is only since the birth of her first child that Laxmi has turned her passion into a profession reinspired by the impressible, joy and creativity shown by her children. She picked up the pencil once again, finding artwork to be a valuable means of reclaiming her own identity, amid the emotional blurring of motherhood. I mean, whoa, like get on this podcast. I'm calling London. I just love that she is like carving out a space for herself in, in world where that's rather revolutionary.
Friend: Yeah, lovely. And what's her style?
Megan: She does these beautiful cobalt, blue drawings of bodies. I'm obsessed with their like imperfect postpartum bodies from all angles, which is a real commentary on women, right? Like an unflattering angle, you know, like, Ooh, imagine this, but they're also abstracted enough that sometimes you can't quite tell. They're beautiful. I'm obsessed with cobalt blue too. So there's a whole love affair there.
Friend: Yes.
Megan: I also have, you know, become her Instagram friend and she is quite lovely. So let's get these ladies on here.
Friend: You are welcome here. We would love to chat with.
Megan: We want to talk more.
Friend: Wow. That's really cool. I love hearing about new artists or new to me, especially a female artists. and I will take it upon myself to go on the interweb. Let's see if I can find some
archival content.
Megan: Yes. Please dig deep.
Friend: All right. Speaking of our favorite female artists. We have a great guest today, really excited to have, our very first, as you said, artist in residence besides you, Megan, are you an artist in residence as well?
Megan: I live here.
Friend: Yes. I mean, you're just here, all the time. Every time I log in. Yes.
Megan: She's always on Zoom.
Friend: By the way, what does that mean? Artists in residence?
Megan: it's a funny thing because it's actually. So you, you go to a residency sometimes if you're an artist and you want to do that, which is basically like, sometimes you're going to stipend and sometimes you pay to go live somewhere that you normally don't live in. Usually pretty like sparse conditions, but like beautiful.
Like you're in like a cabin in the woods or you're in like you're on the beach alone. Right. It's all very like, it's formulaic. You're not like at the Ritz Carlton and Manhattan is what I'm saying. You know, like you're, you're alone with your thoughts with other artists sometimes, or, you know, a couple other artists, maybe not a bunch, but the mission is to like, remove yourself from your current living situation and live somewhere else and work entirely on a new series of art. I've never done one.
Friend: You should, well, you sort sorta went to Spain.
Megan: I mean, I have enough ideas. I just need them a different residence.
I mean, the problem isn't ideas is the problem is like a place in the woods.
Friend: Well, I could, I could get you a place in the woods. It might be cold though.
Megan: I don't know if I want to be alone in the
Friend: Yeah, I was going to say..
Megan: We
Friend: say,
okay.
Megan: let's go.
Friend: So, we've plucked Amanda out of her, usual spot in Brooklyn and on Pinterest. And we've brought her here and it is sparse, but we are happy to have her.
Megan: Yes. All right. Look at us. Just chatty as ever. All right. Episode eight done, oh, I forgot. Hold on. I was ready for Evie of the economist, which makes me giggle because there's these books called, uh, you know, like ADA twist scientist and Iggy Peck architect.
Amanda, the artist.
Friend: Amanda the artist.
Yes, there we go.
Megan: Mic drop.
Friend: The Main Exhibit. Yay. We're super excited today to be joined by our artist friend, Amanda, Michelle.
Amanda: Thanks. So excited to be here.
Friend: Yeah, we're excited to have you thank you for agreeing to this crazy idea. We just admire you so much as an artist. We know you can be doing many, many other things with your time today. So we're going to jump right in to the Q and A, uh, we tend to divide up our questions based on our own... expertise, frames of reference, if you will. Sides of the fence. I will ask you some, some money type questions. Not it. Won't be too scary. Don't worry. And then Megan will ask you some of her Megan questions. Sound good?
Amanda: Sounds good. I just did my taxes, so I'm ready.
Friend: Oh wow. Early bird.
Megan: Oh, my God. Did you hear our reactions? I was like, oh, and Friend was like, Ooh,
that's it. That's the whole podcast.
Friend: Someone else did it. Does theirs early, like me I've I've already done
Amanda: I will just live in terror if I don't do it quickly.
Friend: That's good.
All right. So let's start with your bio. Can you give us a little more on your career background and you know, why New York?
Amanda: Yeah. So, for people who don't know me, I am an abstract watercolor artists and I currently live in Brooklyn. but I not from here originally, I was born in Little Rock Arkansas and was raised in the Milwaukee area of Wisconsin. And didn't move to New York until about 11 years ago. So after I got my BFA and I well, I lived in London for a little bit. That's like, kind of like a side story, but then.
Friend: I didn't know that
Megan: That's so cool.
Amanda: Yeah. so I had an externship from, at the end of my BFA. I have an arts administration degree as well. So to like get that degree, you had to like actually work. so I worked in a gallery in Notting Hill.
Friend: Ah,
ah,
Amanda: by the travel bookshop from the movie, not right next door to him. I had never seen that movie.
When I, when I lived there either and people would be asking me like, where's this travel bookshop? And I was like, yeah. so yeah, that was fun. Highly recommend.
Friend: No wonder we get along. Cause you're basically like an honorary Canadian based on where where you grew up.
Amanda: Yeah, definitely.
Friend: Canada.
Amanda: If any time, my Wisconsin accent dips in, let me know.
Megan: It's here. flagged it. It comes in and out. It's okay. We're all from places you can't avoid it.
Amanda: I also have some like random words that are Southern, but That's just what happens when you're from multiple places. but anyway, so I moved to, New York, my now husband, then boyfriend was here. So we had met in college. He came to New York for grad school at NYU. And I was like, I guess I still like this guy I'll follow him.
Megan: It's very romantic.
Amanda: Yes. but what I did move here, I only had, after living in London, I had about $200 in my pocket. And no job, just, uh, just Matt. So, very patient soul. Uh, we had a roommate which was great shout out to our old roommate. But yeah, it was finding a way in New York finding a way to like keep making art after school is already tricky. Anybody who's gone to art school, who's had to like figure out what to do now that they don't have a studio space. And somebody telling you that all you have to do is make art.
Megan: Like infinite time.
Amanda: Yeah. Right. That transition is already rough, but having that transition with not really having a job is even more so, and being in a new place. So,
Friend: Brave. You're a brave soul.
Amanda: Oh, thanks. That's actually what brought me to how I make art now, which I never did watercolors in school at all. Like I was always kind of like more of like an oil painter, a printmaker working very large. But you can't really do that in a tiny New York apartment. So I switched to watercolors in order to not suffocate and die from fumes
and brave
that's me right there.
Megan: And practical though. I mean, I'm really, truly, you shouldn't be painting in that small space. So like
Amanda: Yes.
Megan: warning for listeners.
Amanda: Yes. You need more than just an open window into a back alley in order to get proper ventilation.
Friend: All right. So thank you for that. That's very interesting. I would like to tell you. Two of the many reasons why we love you and admire you and the first is that you're hilarious. And that just like has to be, it has to be the leading. And this show is very open to people of humor. we're very welcoming of that.
So thank you. And, secondly, you know, and really more importantly more to the point, we've seen you over the years work really hard to pursue something that you're passionate about and, have not given up. And so hopefully we'll get to talk to you about that a little bit today. You know, how did you come to this point because this is full-time right? Like you're, you're a full-time professional artist. How did you get there and how many times did you have to not give up?
Megan: Yeah.
Amanda: Yeah. So I think I want to also be clear that I, I split my time. So I am, this kind of goes back to a little bit about like, not having a job when it, when you're also also have an art degree, people will not understand what you do and so I would get asked repeatedly, can you design a logo for me?
Can you do this? Can you do that? Megan's closing your eyes and acknowledgement.
Megan: Yeah.
Amanda: But eventually I was like, well, geez. If this is what people want me to do, I'm just going to learn how to do this and make money doing that. So I can keep up with my art. So after having like jobs doing that like where I have to like sit at a desk.
Eventually I got to the place in my graphic design that I am now freelance. So I have that like freedom with my graphic design that I can also work on my art at the same time. So I have if I need to go off to a residency for a certain amount of time, I can just like, you know, let my clients know or not take on new clients.
it's, gotten to like, kind of that perfect point where they like feed off of each other. So I don't feel bad when I spend way more on art supplies. I'm selling and paintings because I'm like doing the branding for somebody next month. And so I, I wouldn't necessarily, it's weird. I do still think of myself as a full-time artist because graphic design is a form of art, but I think it's not.
There's this idea that people have that, like, if you are an artist you wake up in the morning, you have a tea, you, you do your morning pages and stare
Megan: Oh,
Friend: Oh, she's got your number.
Megan: I'm like feeling a little bit of shade being thrown in my direction right now, but I do my morning pages in the carpool pickup lines, so fine.
Amanda: That also works.
Megan: No, but I know what you're saying. It's like, there's this like very, romanticized version of what we do for a living. And it's quite scrappy in reality, you're scrappy.
That's why we like each other, you know, you're willing to, um, invent things and like make up a job as you go along that pays the bills. But B like works for your creative flow. You know, it has to do both. hard.
Amanda: Yes. Yeah. And I would say for the first few years after school and first few years in New York, I would just say yes to everything.
Like, are you going to pay me cool,
Megan: Yeah. cause it's like, there's no other option, like first year living in New York. So that's expensive, but two you're trying to subsidize something that is a dream without it becoming this like albatross where you're like, I can't afford this dream.
Amanda: Yeah, definitely. And I think also you can think of that creatively too. Like I think sometimes people end up putting so much of their creative energy into their art, making that they can't see their whole lives in a creative way. Like you're not just making art when you're sitting down and making art. All of the experiences, even from your work, from raising a family, whenever you're doing that all comes back to your work. So I think that this idea that like, I'm not making art, if I'm not making art is very
Megan: It's very suffocating. And it's I think, before we like really deep dive into this and I go on the go full tirade, I do think it's like gendered, you know, like women are expected to do everything well, meanwhile, I just read the Pablo Picasso memoir written by his ex wife. And like, let's just say homeboy was not doing it much well, besides making art. He had everything else taken care of for him.
Friend: By her, or did they have help?
Megan: I mean, he had multiple wives at different points. Like all hands were on deck. The dude wasn't even making himself a sandwich, not even the tea or the morning pages, he was just painting, you know?
So it's like, of course he was great. He had a ton of time.
Amanda: Yeah.
Megan: And probably never washed his laundry, you know, like it's just, the logistics were taken care of. Anyways, speaking of logistics, let me get to the actual next question, which is okay. What do you do all day? Describe your day as an artist.
Amanda: Yeah. So my work is very process-based, and requires a ton of patience. So the way that I lay out my paintings, it's very much like add a layer, wait, add a layer, wait, and, I go in and I have like these little detail moments that I have to like sit and just work on for hours until my hand wants to fall off. So that really lends itself well to balancing with, my graphic design job. So I'll be able to like, know, stare at a painting for a little bit, do a layer. Go to a meeting with the client, or do my laundry. Ha Pablo Picasso.
Friend: No, but you're doing both. Which makes you, I think more impressive.
Megan: We're just better. That's the title of the podcast.
Amanda: So yeah, I think it's a lot of juggling and figuring out what I want to do next. Like, I, I try to be really organized in like what I have to do which is the opposite of what I also think sometimes people think artists are as like, mostly just, you know, flying by the seat of their pants all the time.
Megan: So you preplan a piece, you see it in her brain and then you like paint what's in your brain already.
Amanda: Ironically, I don't pre I don't usually preplan pieces unless it's like a commission, if I'm like working on my own, it is very intuitive, but I would say like planning my day around art making. It's very intentional.
So it's not like I feel like painting today. And then I like glide into my studio.
Megan: that's literally my vibe. So like, this is intriguing to me.
Friend: That sounds like Megan, because Megan has described it to me as it's like this flurry of activity and then the thing is done. Whereas, Amanda, it sounds like you're, approach and then retreat. Like you have to come to it.
Amanda: It's a slow burn
Friend: Is it drying? Is that
Amanda: It's drying during yeah. Drying. Or sometimes I'm just looking at it, like, where does this next?
Friend: It's incubating.
Megan: Well, I do think you are more analytical than me. Like if there's a spectrum of people and Megan is on the far left and, and Friend here is on the far right of analytics, in the middle, right? Like you're, you're kind of like both.
Friend: Okay. So we have these, we've made these two graphics. So we have this idea. It means nothing. We made it up. It's just a, give us a, like a reference for where people are thinking about themselves in a couple of different dimensions. But what Megan is saying is that she would place herself far over
Megan: Yeah. I'm far far on the creative side.
Friend: She's off here where the label is and I'm over here. And then, you know, does that relate at all? We'll only see this as we plot it over time, but does that, do we see any connection then with how we save or spend our money?
Amanda: chart?
Friend: Yeah.
Amanda: One good
Friend: I'm making one, I'm waking you on. So when people answer us, I place, I moved these hearts and I placed them and then we'll be able to see like do all the bankers end up in the top left and all the artists end up in the right. Like, I don't know, we have a hypothesis, but I would love to be proven wrong. So I think you might be about to blow our scatter chart.
Amanda: Yeah. I think I'm a little bit more on the creative expressive side. but not like all the way to the side. And I think saver or splurger is going to be interesting one. Cause I feel like that goes to a lot of family trauma.
Friend: I know I'm trying to get therapist to come in and talk to us and be like, why do we have so much problem with money? Like what is happening? Like, can you just generalize some advice for us?
Amanda: Yeah. Well, my, my mom was a big spender. Like she loved, she, she grew up really poor, so she like loved to spend money. and it was always kind of like, I do still kind of retain a little bit of her philosophy of like, if you want it enough, you'll make space for it. You'll find a way to pay for it. But my dad was not like that.
He was a military brat. Uh, his dad's very like strict about stuff. So he was out like, if you talk to him, we were always on the brink of financial ruin.
So.
Megan: What a conflicting childhood though, to be like, wait, Are we fine?
Amanda: Are we fine? Are we Yeah, so I kind of like, whoosh, I go like back and forth. Some days I'll be like, like right now, I'm kind of in the splurging moment I bought a bidet the other day. I'm like, whatever will make me
Friend: Wait, did I just hear you say, "I bought a bidet"? That's
Amanda: I did. I bought a bidet.
Megan: Cause it's we're at the bidet portion of the pandemic where you really have to treat yourself.
Amanda: Honestly the day portion was when toilet paper was, you know? Yeah, low, but I'm going to get on the, bottom part of the graph.
Megan: I really feel like you're right in the middle. You're like on the, whatever that access is called, the X, Y does zero, zero, you know? Okay. Look at me with the math, remember like, you're just right there. This is you. You're 50, 50.
Amanda: Yeah. I mean, I can, I can go.
Friend: You could go. It sounds like you can oscilate a little, so we'll ask you next week and see, and then we'll do an average and you'll land.
Megan: Her data is irrelevant is what we're telling you all.
Friend: Undetermined. What, what do we think about this one? The way this is just a very simple comfort scale, but we'd like to know who we're dealing with. so I am a nine embrace. I just like love talking about it. To me. It's like fitting all the puzzle pieces. Megan, I think was four.
Megan: Not not to flex,
Amanda: This is a tough one because like, I don't have, I don't feel like I have a problem talking about money. depends on where it's coming from. Like a lot of times it comes from a place of like
ugh money.
Megan: I get that.
Friend: Is that your, your reaction to it? Like that's how you you're feeling about it. So then you don't want to talk about it?
Amanda: Well, I mean, there was a big chunk of time where I didn't have money. And so there's a lot around that of me not liking it from it's really hard when you don't have money to like money. Now I'm starting to have more money. And so I'm starting to. It's a weird, it's weird to transition to be like, oh, money's, money's great when you're making it, but it sucks when you don't have it, you know, it's a real hard conflict, internally.
Megan: There's a lot of talk around like investing and women becoming savvy with their money and that's fine, but it's a little entitled, there are a lot of people just scraping by hoping every month to pay the bills, right. Like, I mean, that is very important to mention.
Friend: That came up with Kristen the other day as well. And also Megan, when you, when we first talked about this and you were like, oh, I didn't do as good as you like, this is not a 10 as an A, and then one is a fail. Like this is just like, just think about what it is, what it does to you and why, and then maybe, you know, you can do some work to make it a little more comfortable if you feel you need to.
But I, I know, and I'll just keep saying. I know that the reason that I'm a nine is a combination of people who have been comfortable talking about it themselves with me, but also like, I don't have to worry about money right now in this I've had times where I haven't been working or where, you know, something happens. So I think it's, it's not just a flat, like, Ooh, 10 is perfect. No, it's like, 9 is a function of where I'm at today and I'm grateful for it. And so maybe because I'm comfortable, I can help other people talk about it, but it doesn't mean that I couldn't slide back down, like something could happen and, you know, I could end up being like, I can't deal right.
Megan: It's hard not to tie emotion to money too, because of either childhood, like you mentioned Amanda, or just general lack of confidence and that's deeply rooted in a lot of stuff. It's just, it's hard to separate. So I'm glad I'm practicing, talking with someone neutral about it. So that when I do talk to my husband about the bills, I'm like, I can take a beat and be like, I actually can talk about this. You know, it's like a confidence this is confidence building.
Friend: Yeah.
Amanda: Yeah. I'm working really hard on making sure I think of money as a tool because there's so many things that are done with money and with capitalism that feel freaking terrible. And so trying to divorce this thing that we essentially made up, money is made up all of it. Cryptocurrency not withstanding, even money itself, the thing we hold in our hand is just something we've decided we've assigned it value. So like not giving the power beyond what we assigned it with. That value is something I'm trying to get through my head and the issues that arise from how people use money or withhold money, or abuse money that is on them, not on this thing that we all have to kind of touch to survive in the world. If that makes sense.
Friend: Yeah, well, you kind of, pre-answered the next question. I was going to ask there. I was going to say, so what do you think about when you think about finance or money? I dunno if there's anything else there that you'd like to I think that gives us a good sense for how you were thinking about it.
Amanda: Yeah, I think that about covers it, just trying to bridge the gap between like what we have to do to survive in this world. And also what brings us joy in making art. I could be doing this by myself with nobody ever seeing me, but I choosing to sell my work to people. So there's always a little bit of that in there that you kind of have to reconcile..
Friend: Uh, You had talked about having your taxes done already, which for the record, we're recording this well in advance of the filing deadline in the U S.
Megan: Nerd alerts.
Friend: So the question there for you, Amanda is, do you manage your own finances entirely? Like, do you do the books, are you watching the flow of cash is there any part of it that you outsource?
Amanda: So that is something as my finances have gotten more complicated, uh, when you have, several W2's and 1099s and money that you're bringing in on your own randomly, you start to realize that it's hard. It's really easy with like, One W2, just do whatever. But when you have multiple streams of income that you're like, oh crap.
so for me, bookkeeping is like a big brain block. I don't know why, like I can't get my head around having to do it. Repeatedly. I think part of it is like, I just don't understand how the IRS categorizes things and I'm big into like, if a rule doesn't make sense, I don't follow it. So I was just like, why did you name it that?
Megan: Just a quick disclaimer, the IRS doesn't like that.
Amanda: The IRS really does not like that.
Megan: So you're outsourcing is what you're saying.
Amanda: So have been working really hard on that and learning like why they're named that way and like what the definitions are and like what fits into each categories. Because I do like to have things kind of like fit in their little place. So just getting more knowledge that way. yeah, learning to outsource to somebody else and learning to let somebody else see what I spend my money on is always uh, fun.
Friend: Fun.
Megan: It's a humbling experience.
Friend: It is humbling. There's something there, Amanda, that I wanted to just follow up on. Do you find, did you ever take a, an accounting or any kind of finance course? And do you find that now it's practical? Cause it, cause it's your money and it's your business?
Amanda: Yeah. So I actually did take an accounting class with my arts administration degree and I freaking crushed that class. I got like a better grade than most of the business majors, but as soon as it actually had, cause then it. Abstract sort of when it's like in a class you're like, like, okay, you're figure out your cog.
And it's always so like what Bob's want it to be? That it makes sense. But then when I'm like, you know, trying to decide where does stock photography fit, like, is that a supply? Is that a office expense?
Megan: I know it's crushing. You can't get too stuck in the minutiae or you're like deep in it, you know?
Friend: That's so interesting because for me it was the opposite. When I had to do accounting and finance and economics, it was that like everything's made up and it'll be fine. We'll teach you this. I could not. Like, I, it just was not real enough and I did not learn anything. So I was the, I was the finance person in your class who scored worse, but then once I got into work and it was like actual businesses with actual financial statements where I could go and see the business and talk to the owner, and then I was like, ah, that makes sense. It was the opposite.
Amanda: Wow.
Megan: That is interesting to me as a person who finds it neither interesting on either ends of the spectrum. You guys are a perfect Venn diagram, circle overlap of each other, and I'm just a dot floating out there.
Friend: So pricing. Pricing art. That to me is it sounds scary. Maybe it's not. Do you have an approach or a strategy or do you just like throw? I think what I would do personally is throw the pieces down the stairs and each stair is like a different price amount. And then like wherever it lands,
Amanda: You made some art handlers somewhere like freak out.
Megan: They're like, don't throw it.
Amanda: I've looked at all of the ways that people are like, this is how you price your work, by square feet, by what materials you use, time plus, when I remember to, I have landed on what I would feel okay with letting that piece go at.
Friend: Hmm.
Amanda: And that's just kind of like, it's very much emotional. Like if I like a piece more, I'm going to charge more for it.
Friend: Yeah, I love that. Well, it does cost you more in a way to let go of it. If you like it more.
Amanda: I mean, truly, but if I'm keeping it in a flat file, then what good is it doing there? So there's a little bit of like, that doesn't make sense. Amanda and I have recently been told by several people that I need to raise my prices. Pricing and art is so weird because it kind of makes you feel like you only ever are able to go up.
If you ever go down your career is over dig your own grave and just lay down in it.
Friend: But then once you do that, the price of your art will go up.
Amanda: Exactly.
Megan: If we all vanished for a couple of years, I would be like Banksy, you know, mysterious woman artist's been missing. And it's like, well, then I should just do that.
Friend: I I mean, have you looked at the price of Banksy? Banksy was like the top three seller last year. I mean, there's something. All right. Interesting. I like that.
Amanda: I think that's the difference between investment art though. Cause I want people who buy the art to feel a, say the same way about me giving them the art. Like, I don't necessarily want them to be like, I'm buying this because an Amanda, Michele Brown original will cost this much in the future. I want them to buy it and be like, I love this. there's an emotional resonance with this and here I need to have it. I don't want them to like, put it in a storage unit at some airport in wherever just like, wait for it to accrue value.
Like that's not, that's not the vibe either.
Friend: So Amanda, I just have a one or two more questions for you, and then we're going to let Megan run the show. Second last question for you on the money side, do you set out at the beginning of the year or quarterly or at any point a budget for yourself for the business?
Amanda: No. I probably should.
Friend: There's no right answer. It's I'm just curious. There's no right answer. I mean, how can you budget, if you don't know if sales are so variable and can't be forecasted, right.
Amanda: Yeah, sales are variable. And also like what I want to make could potentially be variable. I could start off. You know, making small scale watercolors is not going to be expensive, but if I want to start working in canvas and sometimes I'll just buy, even if they don't end up in the work that gets sold, like I'll buy other art supplies to kind of like dabble in that and just see what comes out and how that can be transferred over to my work. So it's hard to know what I'm going to be into in, in September, in January.
Friend: Do you have a goal for a year or
Amanda: I have like, uh, I have to reach this amount. Otherwise I will lose my apartment.
Friend: Right. You don't want to be a homeless artist.
Amanda: Yes. So I have my bare minimum and going back to our like, saver splurger thing, especially becoming a freelancer and not having a W2 anymore. I became like, militant about making sure that I had money in the bank for those dip times. So I had a fairly large cushion that I don't even think exists because it's like completely removed from my day-to-day brain. It's like in a bank account that takes like four days to ever even hit my main bank account. And so I guess that's kind of like, that's not really a budget, but it's like my oh fund. Are we allowed to swear on this podcast?
Friend: We just bleep it all. Good. Have one more question for you. And here again, there is no right answer. I'm really keenly interested to know, you know, many of us measure it in different ways. What is your measure of success when it comes to your business?
Amanda: Yeah, I think business and art would feel like two very different measures of success. and I feel successful in both in like weird, different little moments.
When I was done with my taxes. I was like, I am the business queen. Look, look at me. I just like walked down the street, like boss, babe.
Friend: We should make t-shirts. I did my taxes.
Taxes, done. Check.
Amanda: For art, it feels like it can come into, sometimes it's just even getting into the studio and making art, like where you're just like, there's so many other things to do. Like I could spend all my time doing that, or like, no, you need to just go in there and you need to make, especially if you're.
Megan probably can relate to this there's time. There's like a rollercoaster of making art where you're like, sometimes you're riding high and everything you make is gold. And then there could be like weeks months where everything you make. And you're just like, well, it was a fun ride, but.
Megan: I'm retiring. I don't know how to paint anymore.
Amanda: And so the only way out through that is through. So you have to like getting through that is a, a level of success. I would say that feels that's when I'm like, okay, you're a real artist, because if you're not a real artist, you would have given up.
Friend: That is remarkably similar to what some work days are like, and it's not as personal because you're, we're not making like these visual representations of, how much it was flowing, but I also have some days or weeks, right. I'm getting nothing done. This is where it just feels like I'm going backwards.
And as you're in it long enough, and you don't give up, you realize it's going to come back around again, not every day is going to be my best day for concentration, but I will have good ideas and I will have, you know, so it sounds like it's a similar, feeling where like it's not always perfect. But if you wait it out and keep showing up, it will come back. You'll come back into it.
Amanda: Yeah, I think so much of art making is just tenacity and, just a little bit of audacity that like, people need to see what I have to create.
Megan: That's like all the "acities" really though. It's it's stubbornness truthfully, you had a stop on your Instagram the other day, like 90% of artists quit.
Amanda: Yeah. don't know if that's a real stat, but somebody told me, once upon a time that like, after you graduate, probably one of the professors trying to scare us that like, after you graduate, only 10% of the class would still be making art 10 years from then.
Friend: Wow.
Amanda: And so I was like, well, that's not going to be me. Like took it as like a personal challenge.
Friend: I've just seen another t-shirt, is, I think we need to start making t-shirts which is.
Megan: merch coming soon.
Friend: Audacity plus tenacity equals art. See artists can do math too.
Amanda: There we
go.
Friend: There we go.
Megan: Love it. All right. We're switching to chat about art, which I feel like is a strange pivot mentioned because we've been taught. We've been really chatting about art the whole time, but it's my turn. Apparently, officially, but friend, you can keep talking because that's what we do.
Friend: Yeah. I may keep interrupting
Megan: please.
Okay. my question for you, Amanda, is, do you love your job? And when I say job, I mean, as an artist,
Amanda: Yes. Love it.
Megan: like everyday you wake up and like birds are chirping and you're like, yeah,
Amanda: Well, I don't know about that. I don't know, a grownup kind of love.
It's a mature level where, you know, like when you love a partner and, but they're still annoying as hell sometimes. it's that like balance where, you know, you're in it for the highs and lows as we've discussed.
So funny story, and this will kind of ties back to money too. I was, doing a study abroad course in like, The European union. And we were talking to somebody from like Germany, who was talking about people retiring and not retiring fast. So it was like a whole thing for like them to keep up their like pension system. And he was like, okay, like you, he picked me randomly out of the audience and was like, when do you want to retire? And I was. I'm not going to retire, but he didn't ask me what I do. He didn't ask me that I was going that I'm an artist. So I had hoped to be making art until I'm dead. Uh, and so it was just like typical American answer. I was like, dude.
Friend: That's not the goal. The goal is not do a job you don't love until you can afford to not do it. The goal is do the job you love until the end.
Megan: Yeah.
Amanda: Yeah, I think that's the difference between like a job and a calling.
Friend: Amen.
Megan: Word. All right. We're ending on that because that's too good. All right. Present company excluded. Who are your favorite artists right now?
That's not a so noxious way to ask.
Friend: going to say me. She was going to say, friend is her favorite
artist, right?
Megan: I wrote in the original script here. I wrote, I know me, but also, and then I was like, okay.
Amanda: Tone it down,
Megan: Chill. Okay. So who are your current
Amanda: You know, I would have said you as like my first, first one.
Megan: No, really. There's a lot of good artists
Friend: Is this what it's like when you guys go out for like dinner or coffee and we're not recording or you're like, you're such a good artist. No, you're such a good artist.
Amanda: Actually yes.
So right now I'm really into, Shirazeh Houshiary. She approaches her work in a way that's very similar to mine in that she allows happenstance to be a big contributor to her work. And I saw there's a YouTube video that I saw of her kind of like explaining her process. And I was just like, that's it? That's what I, that's what I want to do. And her work looks totally different from mine,
but
Megan: Who else?
Amanda: So Kathryn MacNaughton it, she's pretty big on Instagram. but she has these like beautiful, very colorful abstract pieces. That it seems like she works both reductively and additively, because it's like, you're seeing through these different layers and there's just a lot of motion to it.
Uh, and they're just super gorgeous.
Friend: What is that mean? Reductively and additively for of us who
Amanda: Yeah. So reductive means like you're taking something away, so a lot of her work feels like if I could show you how to, how I imagined she makes it, she doesn't show her process videos, but I imagine she is like painting a layer with like tape or something, kind of covering something up.
And then when she removes the tape, you have like the layer beneath. So you're kind of like, she's almost like down instead of just putting on top of
Megan: like my paintings have a complete lack of restraint. Hers have like this tangible, like how in the world did she paint a painting and then not have it touch the other parts of the painting? Like the feeling is almost like it makes me a little nervous.
Friend: Well, because she's, she's had to be stringent.
Megan: She has a lot of self-control.
Amanda: Yeah.
Megan: Okay, cool. We'll add those two to our show notes. I have another question. What are your thoughts on art versus fine art? What is the difference?
Amanda: This is an interesting question. And I don't mean to say this to be rude,
Megan: No, it's not.
Amanda: I don't care.
Megan: I love that. That's the best answer.
Friend: Okay. So am I asking the wrong question then? Cause I'm like, what? I need to, I need a definition, but it doesn't matter.
Amanda: I think the way that people would probably see it as like art is just is, and fine art is trying to like, say something more. the reason why I don't care is the process of creation. You're already saying something no matter what, I don't think you can divorce, the utility of something if you're just having a piece of art and it's only goal is to sit on your mantle and look pretty and not tell you some deeper thing about the world. That's fine. It doesn't make it less than, and I feel like sometimes people try to use art versus fine art as like a, this is better. This is worse. I mean, there's bound to be somebody, some art theorist somewhere who likes, spends all their time thinking about that, but I, I, don't care. I am trying to say something with my art. Like there is a, my art is very much about the ideas of memory and identity and, trying to control what is kind of not controllable. But someone's inability to see that and who might see it as purely aesthetics, and then relegated to art rather than fine art, it's not, it's not a categorization that I feel like other people can make for something. that makes sense.
Megan: That's brilliant.
Friend: Yeah, that was, I need to listen to that one again. I think that was good. Thank you.
Megan: Ah,
Friend: All right. You want me to do this one
highlighted it for me? That was, that was,
Megan: I don't know what else to
do
Friend: I like to like, shake that one off. Thank you.
Megan: I'm like cold.
Friend: All right. This is a random one for you, Amanda, do you think that you can tell by looking at a painting, how emotionally involved or inspired the artist was? Does the outcome tell us anything about the emotional state of the input?
Amanda: I think people definitely like to think that they can parse that out, that like, oh, this is uninspired, but the same thing that somebody says is uninspiring you'll have somebody else crying in front of it, so..
People will maybe really resonate with a specific color and I won't want that color. it's just not my vibe right. In this moment. So it's do I make more pieces that I know will sell in this specific color just to make money or do I allow myself to keep going down the path that I want to, to create the work that I'm creating now. And maybe it's both sometimes you can be like, I'm going to make some of these that I know are going to sell like hotcakes. so I can work on the passion project type work and be able to, I feel like a lot of artists do that with commissions too, where it's like, I don't really want to go through with somebody else, the process of creating a piece together, like picking out specific colors that match your living room. I personally love it, but I know a lot of artists don't like it. those commissions are what kind of funds them to be able to work on whatever they want to work on for the rest of the year.
So it's finding that balance that you feel comfortable with. And I think that. If anybody could tell you something, they can tell that it's uninspired. I would be shook to my core.
Friend: Suspicious. Yeah.
Amanda: Sure. You can.
Megan: I mean, I do commissions because I know I'll make that amount that month. it makes me sleep at night. And then I paint in a flurry of creativity, Like a crazy person, because I have accounted for the other part. Is that a real human that pays the water bill, right? Like it's, don't understand how you divorce yourself of that.
Amanda: Yeah. And as a graphic designer too, there's the idea of graphic art and commercial art being different from hand quotes that you can't see on a podcast, the fine art that we were talking about before. I think the, both of them are ways of communicating. And one is art.
The goal is I want the viewer to communicate with the paint. I want them to see themselves in the painting like commercial art is the flip of that. It's I'm trying to communicate something to somebody else. And so as long as you have communication happening. It's art. It's fine. And letting go of what you see other people doing. Cause I think that's the only uninspired art is if you're doing something that somebody else you're trying to steal somebody else's words or their, their inspiration.
Friend: Well, thank you for humoring me on that one. It's an odd old world, you know, I'm trying, I'm like reading art news and websites and articles. And so for really the first time, and sometimes I'm like, Who is some of these people are snootier and, and more exclusive than, you know, like the private wealth bankers, who are the people who, you know what I mean?
Like I can't, I like it should be accessible. I don't understand why it's really not that mysterious or you don't really have the answer to what that means. it's, like this form of snotty, Art critics that like, know, like you go to a good restaurant, you know, the food is good. You don't need somebody to articulate the scent of the spices, right.
Megan: It's hard. It's a hard world. It's, it's, it's wild. It's the wild world of art.
Amanda: Welcome to the art world.
Megan: But also once you know that it is very nice to know that some of the gatekeepers out there don't like my art. I get denied from a show, fine, because I used to be like, I'm denied. They hate me.
And it's like, well, not everyone's gonna like you. And if they do like you, everyone likes you. That's probably weird. And someone will like you if you keep trying, but you have to actually do a good job and produce art. That's authentic. Anyways, we have to move on to the rapid fire round, which we have to be rapid, Amanda. I'm saying I'm literally yelling at myself.
I'm
Amanda: not going to be rapid.
Megan: Okay. fine.
Friend: I'm going to start a timer.
Megan: Ready? Go. Dogs or cats?
Amanda: Dogs, but I do love, I like cats too, but I have a dog. So I'm biased,
Megan: Okay. Fine. That was rapid enough. Tik TOK or Instagram?
Amanda: Instagram to post tick-tock to watch.
Megan: Are you younger than me? Us. I think you are.
Amanda: holds up
Megan: I'm not. I can't even give you like fingers. It'll take us hours, tea or coffee.
Amanda: Tea.
Megan: What?
Friend: Yes, I like it with, caffeine or without?
Amanda: With caffeine. But I like coffee too.
Megan: She's like both. Both, both.
Amanda: Middle of the grid.
Megan: Wine or cocktail?
Amanda: Cocktails.
Friend: Which one?
Amanda: I'm a big gin and tonic lady.
Megan: Oh, she's very fancy. She's secretly fancy. Okay. Miami or New York.
Amanda: New York.
Megan: What was your worst subject in school?
Amanda: I was trying to think of this one, because I was I'm a little nerd and I was like, I'm trying to think I mean, fluctuated, but I'd probably say physics?
Megan: That's the second physics answer we've had.
Amanda: Physics is hard.
Friend: Physics is so hard.
Megan: Never took it, couldn't didn't let me in ?The room. Favorite book as a small child?
Amanda: How small?
Megan: I
Amanda: Like chapter little chapter book or?
Megan: 36 inches tall, like second grade. I don't know, like a kid.
Amanda: I really liked the book, My Side of the Mountain. It's about a kid, this kid runs away from his home in New York City and goes up to the Catskills and like lives in the wild for a year in a tree.
Megan: That's your memoir.
Amanda: Yes,
Megan: That's cool, but predictable. All right. favorite artists living or past?
Amanda: I am a big Kandinsky fan. I love his work.. Yes.
Megan: I would never have guessed that, but I get it. Best restaurant in Brooklyn.
Amanda: Our current favorite, I would say it's probably Claro, which is right by, where I live. It's a Mescal and restaurant it's super delicious. It was our last hurrah before everyone went into quarantine, because it's normally really hard to get a seat. So we were like, " now's our moment!" ran in there and then everything shut down.
Megan: But they're still around.
Amanda: Yes, they are still around.
Megan: Okay. Good. Well, that concludes our rapid-fire session. I'd like to thank you personally for being here with us today. We love you. Where can people find you on the internet?
Amanda: I'm on Instagram at Amanda, Michele with one L art, and TOK too. But I post as regularly there because I haven't gotten the hang of it because I'm not a gen Z er, still like, like it. I'm dabbling. and at my website, Amanda, Michelle art dot com.
Megan: Great. We'll link in the show notes also. And then the last, last thing is the former teacher in me really wants to know, you have a homework assignment for us? It can be something to work on, physically, something to think about something to read, et cetera.
Amanda: Yeah. So a if you were getting into more art stuff, an interesting book that you might want to read, around art and finances. It's a book. The $12 Million Stuffed Shark.
Megan: that shark.
Amanda: Yeah, that shark. So it's that the curious economics of contemporary art by Don Thompson. So it's all about, Damien Hirst work. you know, the one that's like a stuffed shark in a tank.
Megan: No, his work is like beyond my comprehension.
Amanda: Still one of the best titles and all, I don't care what anybody else thinks about his work. I really love the title of this piece.
I think you'll be fascinated.
Friend: Okay
Megan: on for like a book club.
Amanda: Ooh, I love a good book club.
Friend: yeah.
Amanda: I will say for artists listening, who read it, it is. There's so many stuff in it that you kind of want to take with a grain of salt because it kind of presents it as, this is the art world, all or nothing kind of stuff. And I think what people don't realize is that's like the very tippy top of the art world. And there's so much art land beneath that, that you can live and thrive and be happy. You don't have to be. You know, Damien Hirst. You can be very successful not being Damien Hirst probably way happier, honestly.
Friend: That's awesome. That's a good assignment. Thank you.
We'll we'll link to the book. Very cool. And also the, the art that it references for those of us who have no idea what you're talking about. Alright, well, that was fun. Thank you.
Amanda: Yeah
Megan: thank you
Amanda: for having me.
Friend: Do you want to come back again
Amanda: Of course hang I so many things I love to talk.
So
Friend: I mean, I, this whole digital art NFT,
Megan: Darn. We wanted to talk about that.
Friend: It's a whole episode.
Amanda: I could give you more homework if you want to look into that. I really, cause I really want to find somebody who can talk to me about this on an artist level, because everybody's just thinking about it on the like money level. And it doesn't make sense in my head. But there is this old art theory.
Not really like a book, kind of like a long essay, a pamphlet, called Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction. And it's about like when printmaking started becoming widespread and like, what is art? If you can reproduce a work of art, almost to T In a poster kind of. and so it talks about like that je ne sais quoi that art that's made with some of these hands has versus a reproduction, like where do we put the value?
And so it's in the land of NFTs. I really want somebody to kind of like reapproach that. In like art in the age of NFTs, where is the art object now? If it not even an object.
Friend: It's still visible, but it's not tangible. So did we need art to be tangible or are we okay with it just being visible?
Megan: What if like what if I'm not okay with it?
Friend: We should talk about it. We should really talk about it.
Megan: has to be tangible. That's the whole point, right?
Cause it's made with your hands. Like it's a thing
Friend: a song is not tangible
Megan: I know, but isn't it so
Amanda: Yeah
Megan: hearing it live from the artist than it is hearing it on the radio.
How did you ever been to a concert? And you're like, wow, that was way cooler. Seeing the person strumming the guitar and you're like, whoa.
Amanda: But Megan, what if by thinking this way, we're becoming the people who poo-pooed impressionists
Megan: I know
Amanda: We're the, we're those guys.
Megan: I am. I'm the guys that are like, Nope, can't come to this show. You're too weird and bright.
Friend: So we have more to cover.
Megan: All right. NFT episode coming soon.
Amanda: Yes
Friend: Amazing. Thank you.
Megan: Thank you so much.
Amanda: Thanks.
Friend: well, that brings us to the end of this episode. Thank you so much to Amanda for being our artist in residence today.
Megan: Hi.
Friend: Hi, so we had to do this post,
Megan: Post recording here we are on a different day. It's like we've taken all the days and put them back together though
Friend: that's all right.
Megan: technological way.
Friend: Amanda was amazing and we loved having her on as a guest.
Megan: Quite frankly, I'm glad we've had time to digest it all because she's quite a force.
Friend: You know, what I have kept thinking about is her education. I had no idea there was an art administration degree. That's like the business of art. Who, who are these people?
Megan: All art degrees should be that. When she said it, I was like immediately jealous, filled with rage.
Friend: Yeah. And I was like, let's have some more of those
Megan: I wanted them to tell us like all the classes she took related to that we have to have her back on and say, okay, talk to us about college.
Friend: Yes, exactly.
Megan: And I think that's why she's not so frightened of money as me because she has had training.
Friend: Right, when she was talking about the accounting I was like, what? This is the thing. This is so great.
Megan: I was jaw dropped. There were many jaw dropping moments with her. Also. I just love her like effortless, casual, but extremely intellectual vibe.
Friend: All the time.
Megan: Down to earth. Fabulous love her.
Friend: Yeah. She's the person I know who pulls off one piece outfits, including overalls, the best.
Megan: Adult overalls.
Alright. this is Megan of Art by Megan.
Friend: And her friend, your patron of the arts.
Megan: Wishing you more art.
Friend: And maybe, a better understanding of your money.
Megan: Hold on a quick conversation on adult overalls.
Friend: No,
Megan: I wear them, I look like my ancestors, farming people.
Yeah.
Friend: No, I will not.
Megan: Like potato farmers. I just feel like I can't. I try, I'm done trying actually rip overalls.
Friend: Yeah. It was a thing you won't wear vest and I will not wear overalls. It's not even if you drop the straps, then you're basically, you know,
Megan: Just wearing like a single it, you know, like, like a wrestler. I have a hard time, like, so let's just hashtag tall girl content, overalls don't fit no matter how long or tall quote, air quote, they say they are, I'm just hitting the table with rage because whole life has been me trying to shove my humongously tall body into like styles meant for petite people.
Friend: One piece bathing suits, not a No way.
Megan: It's inappropriate.
Friend: Uncomfortable.
Megan: A jumpsuit, like a chic artist in her studio wearing a coverall. Nope. It also inappropriate.
Friend: There was a woman in the airport the other day that was taller than me. So she was probably above six feet and she was wearing a one-piece sweat pants suit, where the zipper was up at the back of her neck. And I was thinking,
Megan: How,
Friend: how do you go to the bathroom in an airplane? Like, Yeah. like, what are you doing first of all, second. Where did you get that? Because it looked like it fit. It was one piece third, no.
Megan: Is it cute?
Friend: No, it, well, no, it wasn't.
Megan: Not your style?
Friend: Not my style. It looked comfortable,
Megan: Well, comfort is one thing, but adorable is another.