Episode 013 - Season 1 Bloopers

Enjoy some behind the scenes clips that didn't make the cut for earlier episodes as we look back, look forward, and laugh until we cry.

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Show Notes

  • Thank you for listening to Season 1! Enjoy your summer break and we’ll see you (chat to you?) soon.

    xo Megan and Friend

    We would love to hear from you! Email us your questions and ideas at podcast at artbymegan dot com

  • Friend: Welcome to The Arts, a brand new podcast about art and money. I've spent my career managing at some of the world's largest financial institutions. So I can't tell you my name, but trust me, talking about money is my jam. 


    Megan: And I'm Megan, I'm an artist and a teacher. And now co-host of this amazing podcast. We're having this conversation because we came to a realization. We have no idea how the other person spends her workday. 


    Friend: Or her money. So let's chat about it. 


    Okay. Episode 13. 


    Can you believe this? 


    Megan: I cannot. How do we do this? 


    Friend: Well, we're super women. 


    Megan: I know. 


    Friend: Is how we get everything done. 


    Megan: The summary in this episode is us congratulating ourselves. Truly. 


    Friend: We saved you some time just so, you know, 


    Megan: Thanks guys. All right. Ready? 


    Friend: Ready. Also, I know you don't feel great. Do you want to tell them why to feel great? Do we want to explain our absence last week? 


    Megan: Yes. We're back. I'm back from my COVID experience, which was an experience. 


    Friend: One way to put it. 


    Megan: So let's just remember that my voice. Huskier than normal maybe. And that I will mute my coughing, but I'm telling you, wow, that was quite a virus. 


    Friend: Well, that's what I've heard. It's good to have you back. 


    Megan: Thank you. 


    All right. So if I sound low energy, it's not that I don't love you. It's just that I'm low energy. 


    Friend: I don't even know that version of Megan. 


    Megan: I know it's a sad, it's hard. No, one's really seen it. It's a scary place. On today's show. We're going to wrap up season one, surprise with a very fun behind the scenes. Look at some of the things that have happened as we learned how to make this podcast aka our bloopers. 


    Friend: That's pretty cold. Megan, you just dropped end of season one, like no big deal. 


    Megan: Bye. 


    Friend: deal. 


    Megan: Well, I mean, let's be honest. 


    Friend: Um, you tired of me? 


    Megan: No, we're just getting started, but sometimes we have to, you know, pace ourselves. I feel like things have to be manageable here and you and I are, quite committed many things. So 12 seems like a great number. 


    Friend: Some might say over committed. 


    Megan: Yeah. Any, any normal human would say overcommitted. 


    Friend: Yeah, no, 12 I think is great. It's like, um, college semester. 


    Megan: Yeah. It's like very official and mathematically satisfying, 


    Friend: So um, podcast 1 0 1. How did we do? 


    Megan: A plus. 


    Friend: A plus. All right, well, you're the teacher, so I'll take it. Season two, you think we can get an, A plus plus? 


    Megan: For sure. We definitely need to take a break though, and catch up on sleep, which I've been doing, but I need to keep doing. We need to like, get some home cooked meals in our systems. I need to do laundry. I'll actually send you a picture later. It's shocking and terrible. 


    Friend: Also for the listeners who can't see us when we started this call, I was actually, I was doing laundry. 


    Megan: Yeah, because we're actually real humans, aren't we all. but we also need to schedule our next guests and I have a whole scroll of ideas, you know? 


    Friend: Yeah. Yeah. The scheduling has been, I would say the hardest part is just finding these busy... getting time on busy people's calendars. All right. So bloopers. so as you guys know, you've been listening to us now for, for a whole season. it's our first attempt at publishing a show and we had to start from the start from the real basics. 


    Like, how do you record yourself? Yeah, no. And how do you, you know, work with a co-host divide the work? I think we did great on that, by the way. 


    Megan: I mean, I won, but okay. was like 70, 30, but okay. 


    Friend: I think, uh, you know, editing the audio. That was A journey Uh, hopefully it's, it's sounding better. 


    Megan: A journey for me has been learning how to sit still in my chair. And beyond that, just general fidgeting. Like I just love touching. So I have to stop touching things and tapping my fingers. 


    Friend: Yeah. I mean, there's, we could go like much more formal in our setup and get you an arm and like a padded booth. And, but I don't think, 


    Megan: wiggle. 


    Friend: think, you'd still find things to touch. 


    Megan: I just want to wiggle, hearing that word. Okay. And I need to not, well, maybe, maybe we don't need to change at all, but we do need to realize that some of us on this podcast get lost in their own thoughts deeply, and then others stay focused better. We'll let the listener decide. We'll do a, we'll do a survey. 


    Friend: Oh, yes. I don't know anything about that. So I'm I'm glad you volunteered. I mean, we've, we've learned a lot. We've had a lot of fun. maybe sometimes we had too much fun, Part of that is we wanted to have it not be annoying to listen to. when we started having too much fun, we just stripped that out and I set those clips aside, uh, you know, little funny stories and tangents. 


    I learned a lot about Megan. She always has a funny story. They didn't all make it in to the previous episodes. so anything that took us off course or where we just, sometimes we were just so both, so off our game 


    Megan: Yes. 


    Friend: lose the plot. 


    Megan: I remember once we had to just like cry, laugh, and then turn off the recording because we were so tired that we couldn't make any sense out of any words. And we were like snort laughing when that would really felt nice. Actually, it's very cathartic. 


    Friend: Yeah, exactly. 


    Megan: Okay. So we're going to narrate and give a little context for these clips when needed. And otherwise we're just going to let this madness roll, but first The Scene. 


    Friend: Nope. 


    Megan: What do you mean? 


    Friend: Can't not today. Sorry. 


    Megan: She canceled the scene? 


    Friend: I know. I just, I just, yeah, I think I have the right to do that. think we've, uh, we've, done really well. but we have a lot of bloopers there's too much playtime. It might end up being like an eight hour episode. If we, if we do the, The Scene. Plus you've been, I think you're seeing is like, What you've been seeing is probably Kleenex and pillows. 


    Megan: ceiling? The scene? The ceiling. All right. What about our homework for today? 


    Friend: Nope. This is like the last few days of class before you go on summer vacation and you just watch a movie and write love notes to each other before it's too late. 


    Megan: Oh, my gosh. Do you remember the nostalgia of the teacher rolling in the television on the cart? 


    Friend: Yeah, 


    Megan: And you're 


    just like, Yes. 


    Friend: like, we made it. 


    Megan: It's movie day. There's going to plug it in, 


    Friend: That's right. 


    Megan: put your head on your desk and call it a summer. 


    Friend: Call it a year. You just finished grade three. Yeah, 


    Megan: Let's get into it. Let's let's graduate. 


    Friend: let's do it. It's summer. Okay. We've got some, bloopers for the day. We hope this is fun. We hope you enjoy it. You get to know us a little bit more. I'm hoping that Megan makes you laugh. She's very funny. And I had to save some of that for this. So, all right. First clip we have is, just the basics, you know, from the beginning, these are in order of how we recorded. 


    So the first recording clips come first and the most recent come last. so learning to read. That was something. And then deciding on who would take on the very tedious job of editing these meandering conversations. 


    "... and something that builds a bridge between people who have chosen to specialize in, in different areas. 


    Megan: I'm like shaking my head. when there's bloopers. There will be me. 


    Friend: No, I just totally read your section. 


    Megan: I liked that you read it. I was really enjoying how you read it. 


    Friend: if that happens, I think we, we can flip this roll. 


    Megan: I mean, let's talk about your thoughts on editing us as a, as a job. 


    Are you, are you interested in editing our thoughts? 


    Friend: Good time to talk about it. I just, as I go, I just want to look at this, um, before other reasons before the bullet points, I just want to make sure we haven't missed anything there that we can get our voices saying it. 


    Megan: You should read the part that you wrote for yourself. Okay. Pause and play. 


    Friend: Pause played. Why don't, why don't you, do you mind if you read them under the blue 


    Megan: yeah, I'll read that. And 


    Friend: was long. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Start here. 


    Megan: and go." 


    Okay. We have another, blooper segment, which is one of our biggest issues. Well, not issues, but learning curves was learning how to manage background noise. we never know when and how it will be picked up on the mic. And again, guilty as charged here, but like, I have a lot of background noise, so enjoy. 


    " Oops. Am I, am I digging? Did you dig? Did I ding? 


    Friend: I didn't hear a ding. 


    Megan: Oh, good, great, great. No dings here." 


    Friend: All right. And, for those of you who know Megan, you know, she, she would make a good director. She loves to be the director, and read the headers. Sometimes we have like instructions or headers in our show notes and she likes to read them in her funny voices. So maybe she's got a backup career there. 


    Megan: Thank God. It's good to have a backup. 


    " Wrap up. 


    You just Cut. 


    Cut, cut, cut." 


    Okay. for our next segment, we have some words we say differently because we're both from different places. So one of these examples is, "having yoga." Which I just giggle at so hard, but it's just a funny little blip. 


    Friend: that was just tired brain. And I didn't even realize I had said it until like the next day. And You said, you know, that was a weird expression. And I was like, well, it's already done and recorded. So there it is having yoga. 


    Megan: You had it just have you have it it's in your day. We also truly do need a sponsorship from throat coat tea, because we both have a regular, maybe a nervous tick, maybe just, um, itchy throats. I don't know what's happening, but we would like to pursue that next season. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: And apparently we want a sponsorship from Botox. Cool. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    " so was having yoga the other day. And, the instructor was, it was at the end, we were doing the own chant and someone in the room, someone in the room had their throat cop and they were like, oh, it was not me. 


    Megan: air quote in the 


    Friend: was not because. It was fine. And the yoga instructor proceeds to say, oh, there's a solution for that. 


    Megan: Stop. 


    Friend: She goes, you just go like this and look like you're, you're squishing your lips forward. Like you're going to kiss something and then you swallow at the same time. 


    Megan: you can't cough while you're kissing 


    Friend: No, it it's how you clear your throat. It's the gesture of bringing forward your lips and your tongue out of the way and swallowing at the same time. 


    Clears it. 


    Megan: Let me segue immediately into my next topic, which I think we need to actually publicly discuss on this podcast, 


    Friend: He didn't like the last topic. 


    Megan: no, I, it shockingly reminds me of the next topic, which is an emergency. 


    Friend: Um, 


    Megan: I have encountered recently so many women that are like 10 years younger than us who have had a full face of Botox done. 


    Can't puck. Can't stop coughing. If you can't move your face, I'm worried. I'm worried for them. I'm not really worried about their self-image, but I'm worried about things like sneezing and squinting in the sun, drinking from a straw, like you're going to have to use your face muscles. 


    Friend: Letting someone know that you are pleased with them 


    Megan: Shock. 


    Friend: filing? Yes. 


    Megan: What if someone gives you a surprise party? 


    Friend: Where are you finding these women? 


    Megan: No one will know if you're surprised. I found one, we went to dinner after my show sounds so fancy. I mean like I'm like sitting here with filthy sweatpants telling you this. and I just felt like I was like, why do you think either she was very bored on her date, or she could not express her face to express what emotions she had. And I was like, are you cool? Like blink, if you're not okay, can you blink? It was just, it was like looking at a Barbie on a date, you know, like just plasticized and I'm not being judgemental. Like do whatever the hell you want your face, whatever. But like not to the point where you can't express emotion. 


    Friend: See, I took your earlier statement. As you went to dinner with her, 


    Megan: Oh, I wish I would have told her like less. Is it more, 


    Friend: and also, so what do you do all day? 


    Megan: Oh my God. I want to know about her whole life. Of course, really. What I want to know is does she think I'm a Haggard old wrinkle face 


    Friend: She probably thinks you're 50, 


    Megan: or, or, inversely, everyone who is 25 now is 50 everyone. Who's 50 is now 25. So us in the center. Or just like people that are dabbling and retinols, you know, and it's like, 


    Friend: how's that going? Last time we talked about that you were pealing. 


    Megan: I have a PSA out there for anyone with fair, very sensitive skin don't dabble in retinols. Go to the professional. 


    Friend: Don't do it unsupervised, certainly 


    Megan: unsupervised in anything. I just don't think, I don't think people that burn easily and have freckles and have had acne should be playing around with active chemicals. 


    Friend: Yeah. I think that's great advice, actually. That's very good. And we could get sponsored by Maybe not. 


    Megan: Maybe Botox will sponsor us and I'll eat all our words. 


    Friend: Okay. 


    Megan: don't think I'm a good candidate for it because I have too many 


    Friend: I want my face to look like I lived! 


    Megan: I don't mind that I scowl when I'm angry. Like I just feel like it's a, it's an appropriate reaction to 


    Friend: apt. Exactly. There is a reason we have these things. Okay. 


    Megan: My children told me they're happy about my lines, cause it looks like I'm always smiling tell you this 


    Friend: No, you did not. 


    Megan: So my face is cracked into a smile, which is really. 


    Friend: I think that's good. You've been living. 


    Megan: At this point, if I don't care. 


    Friend: all right. 


    Megan: Right. So we're going to record something. 


    Friend: Yes. And where we left off on that one was Of course. 


    Megan: Of 


    Friend: And then go, if you don't mind, just going of course, and then asking me about homework 


    Megan: Um, I 


    Friend: also, I'm trying the technique. It's 


    Megan: in a different tab. not working. 


    Friend: The kissing swallow 


    Megan: Look, when I kiss, you really can tell I'm a natural. All right, hold on. I literally have nothing. 


    Friend: in the chat. I dropped a link 


    Megan: I know, but all I'm getting is the podcast plan document. 


    Friend: And then go to the very bottom of it 


    for the agenda for today. 


    Megan: page 21, just let's put that out there for people. We're on page 21. 


    That's wild. 


    Friend: That's right. This does not happen by accident. 


    Megan: We were planning." 


    Friend: All right. The next one is, um, just an example of trying to keep an artist on track and sometimes it takes more than one take. 


    Megan: When we interviewed our artist's friend, Amanda, she and I ganged up on you with our meandering brains. And it was so funny to watch your expressions. That would have been a great YouTube segment. 


    Friend: Sometimes it is like herding cats. Yeah. 


    Megan: "Okay. You ready? 


    Friend: I'm ready. 


    Megan: Of course. Hold on. Here we go again. Okay. Breathing and cut. Of course. And also we should talk about our homework assignments. 


    Friend: Oh, yes, we almost forgot. 


    Megan: All right. So you go first. We almost forgot. 


    Friend: In that we did forget. And then we re-record. 


    Megan: This is future us talking. 


    "This meeting is being recorded. 


    Friend: Okay. 


    Megan: All right, let's do the show open for episode six. 


    Friend: Yes. On today's 


    Megan: volume down. I'm sorry. Let's try it one more time. I'm so happy though. I sound better. Carry on. 


    Friend: fantastic. But Megan's ready. So now we're ready now. We're now we in business. 


    Megan: Okay. 


    Ready? Episode six show open." 


    We have a lot of segments which refer to us struggling and learning how to multitask and or not be distracted. So there's a couple here to pursue. 


    "So that's a perfect, perfect thing." 


    Friend: I'm sorry. I had a work thing happen. 


    Megan: I was like, hello. 


    Friend: Where did you go? Well, I was waiting for your next flight. Oh, I love the sound of the top. Okay. Okay. Me too. I can't wait. Let's dive right in. That sounded like I was reading. 


    Megan: Hold on. Go back." 


    Friend: So when we, we use like a shared document and then we sometimes screen-share sometimes not, in either case we're both looking at the same document, if all goes to plan and then sometimes. I will edit as Megan's talking and give her a real, a real confused script to try to follow. So that's what happens here, 


    Megan: It's like a teleprompter. So you could make me say anything. 


    Friend: but I think the rule should be no editing on the fly. 


    It's not 


    Megan: I liked the challenge. Although you get really sweaty, like you're reading and you're sweating because you're like the words are changing. 


    Friend: " Oh, no, that wasn't it. No, 


    no, I know. I was just about to delete it for you because you had, I think you had the colors there from Kristin and I was like, those are 


    Megan: to 


    Friend: her colors. So I changed them. 


    Megan: Wait. That's the best blooper, because I just almost asked you the question hot to gold or Navy. Okay. But really the color is not called hot gold. It's just gold." 


    Um, okay. There's a segment here called what makes something a real job? Question mark we'll pursue that. 


    " If I log off at 4 29 and that's why, 


    Friend: Yeah, like a real, a real job 


    Megan: well, I don't change my clothes or go anywhere. So I guess that is a real job. 


    Yes. 


    Everyone else 


    Friend: job. Yeah. Everyone else is doing that. now. Yeah. exactly. All right. 


    Megan: Speaking of real jobs jobs, this is one of them. 


    Friend: This is a serious one." 


    And sometimes like probably 10% of season one was us talking about being tall, tall clothing, tall life, 


    Megan: hashtag tall life. 


    Friend: so a lot of that had to come out. So it was a little bit of that here. 


    Megan: I do think tall women everywhere will be rejoicing to hear this content. 


    Friend: " There was a woman in the airport the other day that was taller than me. So she was probably above six feet and she was wearing a one-piece sweat pants suit, where the zipper was up at the back of her neck. And I was thinking, 


    Megan: how 


    Friend: how do you go to the bathroom in an airplane? Like, yeah, like, what are you doing first of all, second. Where did you get that? Because it looked like it fit. It was one piece third. 


    no 


    Megan: Is it cute? 


    Friend: no, it, well, no, it wasn't 


    Megan: Not your style? 


    Friend: not my style It looked comfortable, 


    Megan: Well, comfort is one thing, but adorable is another often 


    Friend: adorable. I mean, you could get the same effect with joggers and a nice shirt. and not have to do gymnastics in an 


    Megan: Oh my gosh. I had to have one jumpsuit, which I'll link in the show notes. 


    I'm not joking. I feel like I'm doing a service to tall women everywhere by sharing this information. I have one cousin who's taller than me, which is shocking. And she tells me all her trials and tribulations with one piece clothing. 


    So it saves me time. And then I'm like, well, once Lauren says, it's fine, I then try it. And then it's usually fine. 


    Friend: Oh, wow. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: I just, oh no, that's not true. I do have one piece, but it's shorts. 


    Megan: Um, 


    Friend: with shorts. And so I feel like then the length doesn't matter. Cause you can just, 


    it can right up. 


    Megan: issue of the Capri pants, 


    Friend: yeah. 


    Megan: which isn't chic when you're tall, 


    Friend: It's not chic. 


    Megan: it just looks like your pants are short. 


    Friend: Yes, exactly. Or three-quarter sleeve. No, because it just looks like it's too short. 


    You look like you're wearing child's clothes. All right. That's a good, that would be a good sponsor idea. Long, tall, sally. 


    Megan: huge clothing 


    Friend: Yeah. There are a couple of brands for tall one. Okay. 


    So. 


    Megan: huge, huge clothing.com 


    Friend: All right. 


    Megan: that wraps that up. 


    Friend: Yeah. We hope that hearing about America, America. 


    Megan: This is the world's longest blooper. Hi, this is amazing. 


    Friend: And for your bonus content, 


    Megan: bull con like this whole full episode. 


    Friend: both of us are tired 


    and we're squeezing it in. So 


    Megan: we go. 


    Friend: we hope that hearing about Amanda's work and approach to expressing herself And making it work as a full-time artist in New York inspiring. And as always, thanks for listening to the art. 


    Megan: And be sure to come back next week for a discussion of, I don't know. 


    Friend: economists or no, We already did her. 


    Megan: We don't 


    Friend: Okay. 


    Megan: know, 


    Friend: We should 


    Megan: sure to come back next week for a discussion 


    Friend: for mystery time. 


    Megan: for four something, period. No, by this point, we don't need to promise these people, anything they're going to tune in no matter what we have 


    loyal followers. 


    Friend: be sure to come back next week. We will have another episode. 


    Megan: Thanks mom. 


    Friend: Thanks captain. Obvious 


    Megan: No leave. Literally shout out to our loyal followers. Let's skip the list out 


    moms. 


    Friend: our husbands. 


    Megan: Oh 


    God. 


    Friend: Okay. 


    Megan: until then, This is Meghan apartheid. 


    Friend: And her friend. 


    Megan: Stupidest you sometimes 


    Friend: All right. My glasses are fogging up. 


    Megan: Oh, okay. 


    Friend: Let's 


    try it. We can do it real quick. Throw code. 


    Megan: cut. Cut. Cut. Wishing you more art. 


    Friend: You know what? We don't even need it. We'll just copy from another episode. Done. Cut. That was hard. Okay. 


    Megan: This is going to be our like holiday special. 


    Friend: This is what you get for your patriarch dollars. 


    Megan: Yeah. I'm literally crying, like pouring tears out of My 


    eyes. Oh Lord. Help us." 


    We have a bit of time where we've spent exploring using your middle name as an adult. 


    Friend: And what it means. 


    Megan: No idea like being in trouble as an adult. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: Okay. 


    Friend: "I don't know if we're calling her Amanda or Amanda. Michelle. They have 


    Megan: I think just Amanda 


    Friend: yeah. ' 


    Megan: she's like Amanda, Michelle is an Instagram person, but no one calls me, Megan Elizabeth, 


    Friend: Okay. 


    Megan: that for strangers and my parents live in trouble. Like often once weekly. Do you know what a shocking concept, please keep this in. This is like directly through my mother who is listening a shocking concept. 


    Is that like I'm old. Right. And I still feel like I could get in trouble with my parents. 


    I want to instill that kind of fear in my. 


    Friend: What would the consequences be today? 


    Megan: Just like that. I would be like, my first and middle name would be used at the dinner table. 


    Like that tone, that your fear. 


    Friend: know, you know, the look. 


    Megan: And I'm like, oh God, I disappointed you. I don't know. I did." 


    Friend: All right, next one. I just thought it would be good to share this one. So we know who's bringing the real order to the show and where the bloopers idea even came from. 


    " So w did you have a look at the, at the grids or the graphs that we have? Like where would you place yourself on the, on the money mind? 


    Amanda: I don't look at it 


    Friend: Okay. No, no, No, problem. just let me see if I can send it to you real quick. 


    Megan: Can screenshare. She's so techy. Just let her be queen. I want to keep this content right here with me just complimenting you while you Google things a don't cut. This. I just called my friend here. A queen. Amanda, we have so many blooper reels. Like it's just shocking. 


    Amanda: I love when podcasts have like a blooper real episode. So just keep those in the bank. 


    Megan: Epic. epic. 


    Friend: What can you see of my screen-share? Speaking of being the queen. 


    Megan: there's a segment on driving in your car with children, which makes me want to just cry a little 


    Friend: I love it. I think it's funny. 


    Megan: "When, I drive my children around in the car, sometimes they say like strange kind of philosophical proclamations, you know, like children's brains. Just sort of let out information. 


    Friend: I love car drives with kids. Cause they talk to you. 


    Megan: well, it's really lovely and there's not much else to do. 


    Right. So we're just like do, do, do the other day, my daughter, who was a preteen, just blurted out, sort of suddenly that it must be really hard for everyone in January. Very that's it, period. And I was like, yeah, the weather's bad. And I was kind of filling in the blanks for her thinking, what in the world is she talking about? 


    And then she continued to say that the only jobs available in January were woodworking. And I was like, honey, Are there other jobs that you know of where people are going to work? What she really meant? It was so funny because she like had to get to the point where we were both laughing because at first I was just laughing at her, but we got to the point where she realized that what she meant was outdoors. There's not much going on. 


    Friend: Oh, right. 


    So there's no lawn cutting. Right? Okay. There's no summer camp, 


    Megan: But I was like, honey, not everyone's out of work except for woodworkers 


    Friend: Like you could still go to a restaurant. 


    Megan: Also, could you not shout that while I'm driving, 


    Friend: I think I would have to pull over. I would be like crying, laughing. 


    Megan: like sobbing at a red light. Like 


    Friend: Oh, 


    Megan: composure, 


    Friend: I love it. 


    Megan: mind of a child." 


    Friend: And then, you know, you can pad the room and tell people you're busy and turn your phone on silent and the doorbell might still ring. 


    Megan: They're always, they're always looking for us. 


    Friend: I love your doorbell sound, by the way, 


    Megan: It's very cheerful. 


    Friend: is it making noise in the house or on your phone? 


    Megan: Both 


    Friend: Both Wow. It's a lot. 


    Megan: remotely. 


    Friend: Yeah. So, so someone could be like, you could be in the grocery store and your doorbell would ring. 


    Megan: Yes. And I can talk to that. It's really helpful and weird. 


    Friend: I'll keep that in mind. The next time I want to show up by surprise. I feel like I know you can see me. I know, you know, I'm here. 


    Megan: our neighborhood children know, and then they'll like stare into the camera and they're like, Megan, open that door and I'm like, oh my God. They know I'm here. I don't have just like my own children. I have like the neighborhood anyways. 


    "Literally guys, all I too was a whole lot of things at once. Like juggling, I'm sorry, if you hear that jingling, do you hear that jingling? 


    Friend: Yes, that was nice 


    Megan: that 


    was my, that was my doorbell, I think. All right. Well we're real profesh." 


    Um, dear universe, please ignore what I just said. 


    Friend: Yeah. That was a risky one. What you said. 


    Megan: I don't know what I said. I can't wait to hear. 


    " I would like probably just hug her, 


    Friend: And then she would cook for us and you'd be like, can I be your daughter? 


    Megan: No, the problem would be this. I would, I have. this Charm, you know? No, I, I have a problem where I accidentally joined people's families. The inverse is true as well in airports. I often attract strays. Like one time I almost adopted a child at the airport because he just couldn't find his family. And there he was and why not? 


    You know, but my point is what, like at this point, the burgers are being flipped. The. Dear universe, please don't hear that. That I just said that like, no, we're 


    Friend: you, I don't think we want to talk on this 


    Megan: breaking out into hives." 


    Friend: All right. And then somehow, sometimes it's like, we're recording in the clubhouse with Mickey. 


    Megan: We were in the clubhouse one day. 


    "How much of the Mickey mouse club can you hear in the background of my podcast? 


    Friend: Very little to none. 


    Megan: Okay, good. 


    Friend: I think we'll just carry on. I think 


    Megan: this called work-life balance. 


    Friend: Yeah. exactly. like 


    Megan: Sorry. I haven't 


    Friend: also no letters about who should not be doing anything other than 


    Megan: What am I supposed to do? 


    Friend: no. 


    Megan: I would, if it was warmer out, I'd put them in the backyard, but like it's cold. 


    Friend: Also, he has an imagination. He's fine. You're right there. Like you can hear him. He's fine. 


    Megan: The clubhouse with Mickey." 


    Um, one time you said your own name. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    I did side note. That has been a real child. That's like an extra layer of challenge. It was hard for the guests. It was hardest for you. And then even I got caught up with it. I mean, how do you, you don't go through life, like, not saying someone's name. So we'll see how the friend thing works out next season. 


    " All right. Recording. Ready? 


    Megan: Hold on. I don't know what I'm doing. 


    Friend: All right. On today's show. 


    Bleep. is going to take some throat coat tea. What? The, like, 


    Megan: Oh, wait, you just said your own face name. 


    Friend: I did, but I was going to cut it anyways. As soon as I start coughing, everything gets cut. 


    Megan: Well, you know, it's nice to stimulate a cough. We do this. 


    Friend: All right. On today's show, we are talking with one of the most talented photographers that we have Uh, I don't love that. 


    Megan: You have to start over. Cause I said, I'm sweating in my sweater. 


    Friend: I know, but when I'm talking and you're talking, I just cut you out any more, so I don't care anymore, but the talk over, 


    Megan: Well, what a job you've taken on. All right. Ready? Go. 


    Friend: do you have an open Chi-Chi's? 


    Megan: Yeah, it's open. I'm supposed to go 


    Friend: I think you should go for it. I think you're better at it. Yeah. Go. 


    Megan: 1, 2, 3." 


    We have general mispronunciation issues. 


    Friend: That would be me. 


    Megan: No, I think it's both. 


    Friend: I do a lot of reading in my head and not too much reading out loud, so that's 


    Megan: Oh, that's fair. 


    Friend: "I have a book that was written just for you, Megan. It is called daily rituals, women at work. 


    Megan: It's like the podcast. 


    Friend: you, know, it. 


    Megan: I know it, but I love it and I want to go reread it. So don't, don't worry. 


    Friend: Okay. it is like the podcast. So it's daily rituals, women at work by Mason, Mason, Mason 


    Megan: Mason 


    Friend: That's like a very 


    Megan: is he? I don't know. Mason. 


    Friend: Mason. 


    Megan: You're French came out there. My soul. 


    Friend: did it, did it did. I was like who there's. No, there's not. I, uh, it's funny how, when you have to say things out loud, it's a different story. Okay. It's called the book is called daily rituals. Women at work by Mason Curry." 


    and then we had old world versus new world, so Walking versus internet. I think that was the one where you were talking about the, um, how women work and everyone goes for a walk or something. 


    Megan: " walking, walking, constant walking like everyone's ritual is to go f or a walk. 


    Friend: Well, it's mind resetting. 


    Megan: Yeah. Also, there's a word for this, that someone supports now I cannot prove, but it's something about like 


    passive 


    collection of information. 


    Friend: I'm having an internet problem. Yeah. I'm having an internet. I'm going to, I try to switch it. It defaults to the non 5g. I'm going to switch it to the 


    5g. And, um, okay. So we were talking about why. 


    Megan: Oh my gosh. Yes. So the common thread I thought I saw, which was slightly less exciting than your inspirational moment was that everyone's going walking a lot. " 


    Okay. we have more content regarding tall outfits and the pursuit of the perfect jumpsuit, which I don't know. I think I'm still on the pursuit 


    Friend: Yeah, I think it's still on. We'll take any recommendations. 


    Megan: I don't know. I mean, it's just like, I keep trying and it's like three inches too short. 


    Friend: Yes. I would like to talk to you about something trending other than jumpsuits in the clothing department. If I may take, take a sidebar for a second. So it's starting to be warm in New York and this year more than I have ever seen in my entire life. it's like, the bras are not being shipped. It's like, there's no supply of bras. So who cares? We've just been two years at home. Uh, without one why we're like, like everyone is not wearing a bra. Let me restate that. No one is wearing a bra. Why, what happened? What happened in the social world or something that it was like, burn your bra just this month, 


    Megan: I know, 


    Friend: do you have any insight? 


    Megan: I do not, I have complicated thoughts on this actually, because I kind of liked the idea of not caring, but then I personally don't want to do that. 


    Friend: Yes. I'm 


    like well, that's, 


    Megan: I like 


    support. 


    Friend: I just like having, like, I know where it is and know what's going on, you know, 


    anyways, 


    Megan: we are too old to be part of this. 


    Friend: it is a movement though, and I would like to get to the bottom of it. If anyone knows, like what happened was there, was there celebrity who showed up. 


    Megan: Yeah. I think it's like a gender neutral gender neutralization that we're seeing. 


    I just don't like the feeling 


    Friend: yeah, I don't, yeah, it's not for me, but it's happening folks. 


    Megan: it's happening. 


    Friend: jumpsuits are out. So we're bras. 


    " Three tall ladies, the average height on this call 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah. 


    Friend: is almost six feet. 


    Megan: I almost found a jumpsuit almost. 


    Friend: so is this still a little 


    Megan: I could stand up straight, but I couldn't like stretch. Cause it was just like, whoa. Okay. That's not appropriate. We're on this. We're on this jumpsuit mission and it's like five, 10 is the limit. But anyways, 


    we just, should we do this? Should 


    we do this. podcast?" 


    Okay. And our next blooper we've discussed that we're doing this podcast for 52 more years. 


    Friend: We could set a record 


    for longest running. 


    Megan: Probably what else will be like holograms or whatever. 


    Friend: We'll be like, what's that? What are these kids doing? No bras and holograms. 


    "Yeah. Okay. these morning recording sessions are not good for me. There's 


    Megan: We're so flemmy. 


    Friend: I know it's like, huh, 


    then I have to do my, 


    Megan: shut. And your throat is swollen shut. 


    Friend: but only one of them will be obvious to our listeners. No one will know about your face. 


    Megan: When, where I'm really old, I'm still doing this. It's like 90 year old women. my gosh. Imagine. Okay. Stay on 


    Friend: I D I don't ha I don't know if I have the stamina to do it for, um, 


    Megan: 50. 


    Friend: years that? 52. 


    Megan: But by then, you'll just be like upload. I don't give a 


    Friend: And be like, whatever, let's just do this thing live. Nobody is then. Yeah." 


    And then I think my favorite moment of the whole season was when you're a little sweet person came and told us his finger was stuck 


    Megan: In the door knob 


    Friend: In the doorknob. 


    Megan: Like he was is trapped. 


    Friend: and his little voice. And I 


    Megan: I'm stuck. 


    Friend: it was like, hi, I'm sorry to interrupt you. 


    Megan: He has a little gentlemen, but he is also the gremlin. So it's like a double whammy. It was like a well-dressed monster. 


    " you has 


    to go potty and we're back. Hold on one second. Do you need to go right now or do you want to say 


    Friend: Hi. 


    Megan: hi to 


    this finger is stuck in the door knob. One second. 


    Friend: okay. 


    Megan: it's actually stuck. 


    Friend: Hi, I'm getting, let you go potty. 


    Megan: Can you say Hi. 


    Friend: Hi sweetheart. I have to go to work. 


    Megan: do you need to 


    sign off? Well, we're good. You can go. 


    Okay. Heart you. Bye Say bye." 


    Friend: And most often next to our height. We, you talk about hair all the time. 


    Megan: favorite topics because it's an, it's a struggle that we've embraced. Great. The height and the hair. I'd say they're two of our biggest struggles in life. 


    Friend: Ooh. First-world problems. 


    Megan: No, I mean, it's fine. We're fine. We're getting through it, but it's, it's involved a lot of research and product testing 


    Friend: And case, ball caps 


    Megan: Oh 


    Friend: handy. 


    Megan: You gotta have a lot of backup plans. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: Humidity, you gotta know about the weather. I mean, there's extensive research involved. 


    Friend: I do have to check the humidity. 


    Megan: Always. 


    Friend: " Okay. 


    Megan: No just 


    Friend: are we going to talk about your hair today? 


    Megan: we should start, we should open the today's episode with my hair. Um, you know, my children are in the other room on spring break. 


    Friend: Oh my 


    Megan: I left the following directions with the older one. Do not watch anything about murder. Goodbye. So I'm basically killing it is what I'm telling you. I love your hair when it's not straightened. 


    Friend: Thank you. Thank you. What it is is my life is out of order. So my 


    Megan: Yes 


    Friend: out of order. 


    Megan: you are channeling, uh, Monica on tropical vacation. Do you know that friends of the stuff? 


    Friend: Do you know? No, I do not. That is 


    Megan: Oh my God 


    Friend: the first time someone said that to me. 


    Megan: literally. That's my, when I go step off of a plane in the Caribbean, I convert into a person with like wild slash scary hair. 


    Friend: Yeah, well, I'm a little nervous because I'm going to Argentina for and they apparently have really bad humidity. So I have, so I, first of all, it looks like this because I landed at like late Sunday night and then hit the ground running 


    Megan: No 


    Friend: it. I was like, what the I don't, I 


    Megan: I 


    Friend: you know. and so then I was like, whatever, I'm not going to, then 


    it was 


    Megan: cares? 


    Friend: I know. Well, I care. 


    Megan: Well care 


    Friend: you know, so, 


    Megan: I get it 


    Friend: well, now I'm doing the same thing. The other way I'm going to land. It's going to be, you know, humid. I think I'm just going to it. 


    Megan: Just be curly for a week and see what happens. 


    Friend: I hate it. It makes me grumpy. 


    Megan: You too. I hate it. When I try and run my hands through my 


    hair 


    Friend: exactly. 


    Megan: and they get trapped 


    Friend: whoa, 


    Megan: The problem is you and I have the same exact hair, which isn't cute curls. It's like unruly lioness, you know? And you're like, this is hard. 


    Friend: Your hair looked. Did you have your hair done when you did the art show last 


    Megan: No, but you know what? I didn't do wear Spanx and it shows in the pictures for being fully honest. 


    Friend: No. 


    Megan: it's just like, hard enough to be like nearly 100 years old. The middle section is re is relaxing. I'm like wrinkles 


    fine But food food bars 


    Friend: went a, she went with red 


    Megan: Yeah, I was 


    we're going, I don't wear red, but 


    out blondes should. 


    Friend: out. You can, you had a black leather jacket on, which I thought was very New York. 


    Megan: Well, cause you know, I'm not here forever. I wish that we could podcast our faces, 


    YouTube, 


    Friend: All right. So, um, quick, quick catch-up 


    Megan: oh my gosh 


    no, they're fine. 


    Friend: not watching murder. Um, but how are you? Like, how 


    Megan: So busy 


    Friend: it worth the framing? You look 


    Megan: it was so 


    Friend: things what's 


    Megan: I'm like 1, 2, 3. 


    Friend: Are those all 


    Megan: I'm like all of this, I'm in a storage closet. This used to be like an expensive spare bedroom because I had like a painting in it. Now I'm like, it's closing in on me. I told I'm moving out. 


    Friend: I was going to say you need like a garage or 


    Megan: Like I'm out. No, I think I'm I'm going to move 


    out 


    Friend: to get a studio 


    or a different house? 


    Megan: Well, no, I'm not getting divorced. I'm just going to move my art out. The rest of it's fine. No problem is when you do big things, the problem is that you get big return, which is great, except when you don't have time. So I'm really just like, um, the joke among my mom, friends, as we're all just treading water until our children are in school. 


    Friend: Yeah, definitely. ' 


    Megan: cause it's like, you can only do a half job or as much as possible in like your weird three hour increments, but it is maddening. So yes, the show was really successful, 


    Friend: Good." 


    All right. We're almost through. 


    Megan: There's a segment on why I don't knit. 


    Friend: I mean, because you just come up with the most random things. So like that made it too. 


    Megan: I hate knitting just saying it. 


    "I'm just like astounded by people like her though, that can kind of just chip away at a task. 


    Friend: something. 


    Megan: That's pretty impressive. Same with people that like knit I'm like, oh God, it's my nightmare. 


    Friend: I, yeah. I abandoned knitting projects all the time. I 


    Megan: You know, what's funny watching someone like me trying to knit because I'm like too tightly wound. Literally my aunt who's like really relaxed was always like, loosen your, loosen, your whatever. And I was like, grunting. She's like, honey, it's supposed to be relaxing. I was like, this is horrible. I hate it. 


    I'm just, it's getting smaller and smaller. I had like a scar for elves, the terrible, 


    Friend: my goodness. Okay." 


    And then finally, things that make us feel old, it's not so depressing, but it's a little like, like middle-aged. 


    Megan: Oh, that's hard. That's a hard pill to swallow, but you know what? There's a beauty in this. We get to be older 


    Friend: and still here. 


    Megan: and be funny. Still. And beautiful can talk. 


    " Returning to us travel for you. Seems horrible. By the way. 


    Friend: I don't know. why I'm not being resilient about it. I think I just need to like, get over it. I used to be like, were like orbiting each other around and was like, okay, I'll meet you there. I right. And now I did one boring trip to small. I couldn't sleep while I was there. 


    Megan: hard 


    Friend: death week. I don't want to go again. I'm flying tomorrow night. It's overnight. 


    Megan: I don't adjust to time as well as I used to. Like, I do think that's a good thing about 


    age 


    Friend: about age. 


    Because I used to, like, I wouldn't even skip a beat or Maybe I didn't realize how tired I was 


    Megan: Maybe you didn't care. Maybe you were on more nervous adrenaline now. You're like, oh wait, I've seen the other side. 


    Friend: Yeah. So all of that is to say, 


    Megan: you're 


    Friend: it would be great if this episode was shorter than some of the other ones. 


    Megan: Let's muscle through. I'm going, I'm telling you to muscle through, I'll the blog things. Obviously I wanted to do that. I just didn't want to like, get all up in your grill. 


    So that might help us season two wise. 


    Friend: Yeah, I think we're good. I think that's fine. That's fine. I can see the light at the end of the 


    Megan: yeah, yeah. yeah. It's a lot of work. 


    Friend: Are you getting enough feedback? You think that that people that we don't know are listening? 


    Like, are you 


    Megan: Oh yeah 


    Friend: social? Okay. Because the only people I'm hearing from are people I know. Right. Cause I've told them, 


    Megan: I mean, random people share about it. 


    Friend: okay." 


    Megan: All right. Well, that was fun. My favorite bloopers are the ones where we cannot control ourselves. Just generally giggle mania. 


    Friend: Yeah, we have had a lot of laughs. It's been good for that. I love it. As I said, I, my favorite is when your son drops. And he says his cute little things and he tells us about his life and he's like, you're telling him to say hi, he can't hear me because I'm in your headphones. It's like confusing. It's very cute. 


    Megan: I think it's like, what is mommy's job? he could be a future guest. He's definitely an artist. And, um, we love the thought of having a male artist on the show. So we should explore that for season two. 


    Friend: Sure. mean, yeah, but he he'll be soon school age, so he could do like a homework assignment show and tell like, Hey, I was on this podcast. 


    Megan: Yes. Okay. I think that's all that's left for us now is to say some major thank yous. 


    Friend: Yes. And then, uh, maybe we'll give a little sneak peek into CS. 


    Megan: Yeah. All right. First step, I would like to thank my mom for being the first person to listen to episode, truly because the episode publishes on Friday mornings. And if it's 43 minutes long, she calls me 44 minutes later. Truly like that's such a good, it's such a good thank you because it's so accurate. 


    So thank you mom, for supporting us 


    Friend: it's, that's so nice. Um, the show show would be nothing without our mothers. So thank you for listening, in your retirement, you know, putting us on your, on your to-do. I'm sure there are more interesting things you could do, as, as retirees, It's nice to know that at least two people are listening. 


    I mean, it's way more than that. But side note, We tried to get them on the season and both avoided us. So now that they have proof that we're doing something cool. Interesting. not insane. 


    Megan: We can pressure them. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: I don't know if they're not sure about the insane part yet though, though. Like they did raise us. They know what they're dealing 


    Friend: I know what they're dealing with. 


    Well, maybe I'll interview your mom and you can interview my mum. 


    Megan: That would be really cute. 


    Friend: Jury's still out. Well, next to our mothers, we'd like to thank all of our listeners for giving us your time in your ears. 


    Megan: I mean, if not for you all, we would not have to record ourselves or edit. We would just call each other, but really we made this for you and we really loved this idea. So we hope to like, we really hope you liked it, but we know like, from a lot of you that it, it had, uh, it had some bones to it, you know, like there's something to this. 


    So it's very exciting to think of an idea and then have people react to it positively. 


    Friend: Yeah. Yeah, it was really nice. and we started off the beginning of, we started off in episode one saying, no one asked to emails and I don't think we had any, what do you 


    Megan: Not even an Instagram comment, although 


    Friend: see any. Yeah. 


    Megan: like we don't attract that type of energy. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: I think that's one of the things. 


    Friend: Good, good. So good 


    Megan: general vibe is like chill or at least silly. So I don't think that, like we have anyone out there that's frustrated or filled with us yet. 


    Friend: we're, I don't we're 


    Megan: Stay tuned for season two, 


    Friend: yeah, that's cool. 


    Megan: but we have heard from somebody have you like DMS messages, emails that say sweet things. And that, that means the world to us. So thank you. 


    Friend: Yeah, let us know, you know, keep, keep reaching out, by email or by, um, I guess Instagram, Megan's getting a lot of it. you know, let us know if you. 


    have questions, topic, ideas, feel free to tell us, um, what you liked or what you like to see more or less of. We're cool with that. We love feedback. 


    Megan: Perfect. The show email. is still podcast@artbymeghan.com and we'll be monitoring the email address between seasons. So if you have an idea randomly one day in the summer, just hit us up. 


    Friend: Yeah. And do you take a summer vacation from Instagram 


    Megan: I 


    Friend: you cannot. 


    Okay. All right. So they can still find you there and there's that podcast widget your Instagram. 


    Megan: Yes, that was the right. It's a highlight, but you're close. So yes, people are sharing it and they're loving it. So I feel like with Instagram now, it's a weird, mysterious place where you don't really know what point a to point B is a longer, but things snowball at weird moments. So whenever people feel like sharing it, it's still good 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: of sharing is caring. 


    Friend: All right. One more. we could not have made this season what it was if we didn't have guests 


    Megan: gosh, guests were amazing. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: There are so, so good. Thank you so much to them. For first of all, risking like a brand new podcast and being like here goes nothing, but also for sharing their wisdom with us and our, our listeners. So thank you to Kristin, Justina, Amy, Amanda, Evie, Marie, and Chi-Chi for taking time to sit down and chat with us. 


    We know it took a lot to schedule we're just so super thankful for you. 


    Friend: Yeah. And thanks also to Hannah. Hannah helped us at launch at the beginning and edited the first half of the season for us. And we really appreciate her guidance and her help there. 


    Megan: uh, major league. Cause we didn't know 


    Friend: We didn't know what we were doing. Yeah. And she was, she was tough. 


    Megan: She was, was a good critic. 


    Friend: yeah. She was like, stop that, do this. 


    And were like, yes. 


    Megan: Stop moving. She was very helpful and kind, and was like way too qualified to work with us, but just lended her expertise, was super nice of her. 


    Friend: yep. So good. 


    Megan: I would like to thank you, Friend for inspiring me. I'm not being cheesy. I have to be serious. You actually make me think harder. You ha you helped me organize myself better. My thoughts, and you make me think bigger, which I feel like is the sign of a good friendship, but also a fun podcast. So thank you. 


    Friend: Oh, that's fun. 


    Megan: Also our super cute, like sitting on The Met steps, the met art gallery in New York. Um, we were like gossip girl sitting there brainstorming this one day but it was a great idea. 


    So I'm very grateful for you. And like, honestly, for this challenge, because it was so good for my brain and I think it was good for a lot of us. 


    Friend: Yeah, that's awesome. Well, it's been a pleasure and thank you for maintaining my anonymity and, uh, for just making me laugh. I mean, you just made me laugh so hard and you told me probably a dozen times to stop overthinking things, which is good to hear. if you have the propensity to overthink and forgetting me painting, you know, like trying just, it was just so good to get to work with somebody coming from such a different space. 


    I really loved it. And I think you were good about being transparent. You also had to share more because I'm anonymous. You opened up much more about your life and work than I did. And I appreciate that. I think that helped with the authenticity of it. 


    Megan: We have a good, like yin yang thing going. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: I like that. Okay. I would also like to thank my husband for telling me that this was a good idea. Has input actually matters to me and I tease them because he tells me other people have to validate things way after he said, it's a good idea. So I'm telling you, thank you for saying this was a good idea, to my children for their background, rumbles and giggles, which yes, drive all moms crazy, but are fun. And they're very sweet and wonderful. And to a couple of my girlfriends who I've known my whole life are mad at me for not interviewing them on the podcast. 


    Friend: Season 


    Megan: I've promised a couple of them. Like, I'm really sorry. It's nothing personal. 


    Friend: I mean, there was only like five or six. Then we had that. We kind of had the pre set in a lot of ways before we even went. So, no, there's lots of time. There's lots of time for that. Um, and my husband cooked. Well, I edited a lot of nights, which is, amazing. you know what? We sound like those actors at the Oscars, Like the music has started and we're just like, you know, we just keep talking and talking and talking. 


    Megan: And my math teacher from fourth grade. Okay. I mean, whatever, it took a village, there's a lot of people that go into making things happen. 


    Friend: Yeah, it did. It did. And we did it. Okay. season two, what are you thinking? 


    Megan: I think we record in person in New York. 


    Friend: Yes. 


    Megan: But there's also so much we did not get into in season one. Like we have a lot to explore. 


    Friend: Yes. I'd like to meet some new people. maybe art history. I'd be interested in that and NFTs. 


    Megan: I mean, do they exist still TBD? We have all sorts of things on our brains. I mean, I could make you a list right now of 12 for season two, right? We have like fashion designers, a trilingual art history professor, a floral designer, our friend, Deborah. Who's an amazing artist, author Eve Rodsky of unicorn space. 


    We're going to reach out Grossi Pelosi like he's coming on and he's fabulous and hilarious. Alicia keys is lined up. 


    Friend: Okay. I think a few of those might've been wishful. 


    Megan: I'm pretty sure Alicia is in the BMS. Um, I'll circle back. 


    Friend: right. 


    Megan: we're going to interview some male wall street, investment bankers in their best. 


    Friend: Yes. 


    I would love to have some male guests. I don't think that it was exclusive you know, it wasn't like intentionally exclusive. It was just where we started. that would be. 


    Megan: Yes. 


    Friend: Cool. All right. Well, lots of ideas plans in the works. We're going to take the summer and we're going to do some behind the scenes scheduling and writing and so on. 


    you know, it takes us a little time. We research, we schedule, we script record, we edit, we, you know, so just take us a little bit to get ahead of it again. 


    Megan: Okay, but also what are you going to do with your time off? 


    Friend: Uh, work. How about you? 


    Megan: Being a grownup is hard. yeah, I'm working. I have a solo show in July on July 15th and you're coming. 


    Friend: Oh nice. 


    Megan: you there 


    Friend: yeah, that sounds awesome. 


    Megan: also. we should go on girls' weekend. 


    Friend: Yep. 


    I mean, 


    Megan: Okay. 


    Friend: do you want to, should we try to estimate when we would launch her, I'm a little afraid to commit 


    Megan: No, we're not estimating anything because here's why we're going to just give people a vibe as to when we will reemerge. Here's what close your eyes. Just as a visualization technique, 


    think of like a back to school vibe. You're sharpening pencils. You're buying school supplies will reappear around them. 


    Like the smell of a sharpened pencil will be in the air. 


    Friend: right. Sounds good. Okay. My friend, that's a wrap. Go for it. I know you. love this part. And season. 


    Megan: Oh, that was really cute. Good writing. 


    Friend: Yeah. Thank you. That was 


    Megan: Good work. 


    Friend: As always, for listening to The Arts. 


    Megan: This is Megan of Art by Megan. 


    Friend: And her friend, your patron of the arts. 


    Megan: Wishing you more art. 


    Friend: And maybe, a better understanding of your money. 



    Friend:

Third and Fourth
Episode 012 - Pricing 101

Megan and Friend respond to a listener’s question, reflect on the difference between pricing strategy and pricing math, and try not to make artists shriek.

Listen, follow and review us on your go-to podcast directory: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | Google Podcasts

Show Notes

  • Book A Room of One’s Own by Virginia Woolf

    Tate Modern Museum in London

    National Gallery in London

    The Prelude by Kehinde Wiley

    Artist Bella McGoldrick

    Artist Tara Andris

    Homework:

    Categorize your costs, overheads and profit.

    Support a friend who is trying to perfect their pricing.

    We would love to hear from you! Email us your questions and ideas at podcast at artbymegan dot com

  • Megan: Um, ready. Go. That's my official entry to this topic. One two three. Welcome to The Arts, a brand new podcast about art and money. I've spent my career managing at some of the world's largest financial institutions. So I can't tell you my name, but trust me, talking about money is my jam. 


    And I'm Megan, I'm an artist and a teacher. And now co-host of this amazing podcast. We're having this conversation because we came to a realization. We have no idea how the other person spends her workday. 


    Friend: Or her money. So let's chat about it. 


    Megan: On today's show. We were talking all about pricing. I know. I know you want to cry already, right? 


    Friend: Me? No, I like, no, it was 


    Megan: that was like the worst joke ever, because I know you like this. 


    Friend: I love pricing. This was my crazy idea. 


    Megan: Oh, all right. Well pricing. and this is a tough topic and we're going to just tackle it. But first The Scene. 


    Friend: The Scene. 


    Megan: So friend, what's trending in the arts this week? 


    Friend: Um, I always like it when you go first. Cause you have like some crazy things happening. You had a show. I don't know. Like what do you want to tell me about? 


    Megan: Okay. I don't even, I can't digest the show yet cause I'm still like, I'm too tired from it. And so I have no thoughts, period. No, it was wonderful, 


    but 


    Friend: I can strip that out. 


    Megan: my brain is tired. All right. But I 


    read a new book. That's come out. 


    Friend: Wait, do extroverts get tired? 


    Megan: Oh my God. I couldn't. No. Keep this in. Let's tell all the introverts everything. 


    I couldn't function. I cried not in public, but in my home, like I curled into a ball and cried 


    Friend: from the, 


    Megan: exhaustion of talking the opening night. I had so many conversations in a row that I felt like I was wasted drunk. I couldn't, I couldn't think straight. got home and I was beyond tired. I was like, zooming around my home, like a puppy. 


    Friend: oh, I didn't. I thought that you would come out of something like that re-invigorated and, you know, with 18,000 new painting ideas and like, gardening at the same time. 


    Megan: I wanted to cry and lay on the floor. So even extroverts can't go in public is what I'm telling you. Also there is this like pandemic looming still. So that just kept coming up in conversation. And I was like, geez, I just want to be in public. 


    Friend: Right. And it's probably a muscle that you have an exercise too much is the super social butterfly with fans. 


    Megan: But I was like, wow. I hit a wall one day. I just like ate a salad in a closet that was like, no one talk to me. 


    Friend: that's what introverts do. They're always looking for the closets. 


    Megan: I think I have a shocking confession. I think I might be like a little bit of an introvert. I'm a joyful introvert. 


    Friend: Okay. 


    Megan: I don't really like people. Well, anyways, so anyways, I read a book. 


    Friend: Tell me, 


    Megan: It's not new. It's from 1929. 


    Friend: okay, Megan, I'm going to put you on notice for the next episode. How do you have time to read all these books? 


    I read a book. I think you need another podcast called I read a book. 


    Okay. 


    Megan: This one's called Virginia Woolf's A Room of One's Own. 


    Friend: Okay. 


    Megan: It's only every high school reading list slash every like intro to feminism class. I read it because I'm pretty sure I've already read it or that I'm supposed to read it in high school. 


    Friend: You're just checking up on yourself to make sure you did your homework 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: retroactively. 


    Megan: check, you know, like you're like, what's happening. 


    Yeah. Like did I read it? I don't know. So I read it and it's very funny to read as an older wiser person. she's, first of all, roasting men, just the whole book is a roast of her contemporaries. She was like, how about you pay women? 


    And then we'll be able to make a living, you know, just full on feminist hatred. I'm so into it. She also, the way she writes is like very like Bridgerton adjacent. So that was fun. I liked it. It was a very dense. You know, we like her ideas though. The whole premise of the book is that she basically like fakes that she's been invited to lecture on this topic of women in fiction. 


    And so she's like in order to be successful, women must have a room of their own. And I'm like, yeah, preach Virginia. 


    I really liked it. Okay. My favorite quote from the book is this, " intellectual freedom depends upon material things. Poetry depends upon intellectual freedom. And women have always been poor, not for 200 years nearly, but from the beginning of time." 


    And you're like, ouch. But her whole point was like, if you want me to raise these children fine, but I'd also like to write poetry and I can't do that. If you guys don't pay us 


    Friend: So, still relevant. a hundred years later. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    It was kind of a bummer, but really good. 


    Friend: How long did it take you? 


    Megan: It's still like a small thing. I read it like during carpool pickups. 


    Friend: Okay. 


    Megan: This is how I read. I have a lot of stagnant time. 


    Friend: I don't understand how carpool pickups 


    w 


    Megan: driving and reading. No. I mean, I'm like waiting for children to get into the car. 


    Friend: Why do you have to wait for them? 


    Megan: Oh my God. Any parents out there? The COVID school pickup protocols are just elaborate. 


    Friend: they're your own children who 


    cares? 


    Megan: out of the building at a time. 


    Friend: What, 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: Why do they need protocol for the kids to go back with your 


    Megan: don't want them like crowding each other. 


    Friend: Oh, come on. they're sitting in a classroom all day. 


    Megan: They're getting snuggle their way out to the car to like, let's go. 


    Friend: Do they have to check them all out and do a nasal swab on the way out the door? 


    Megan: Might as well. 


    Friend: Wow. 


    Megan: Yeah. It's wild. 


    Friend: I thought it would be the kids waiting for the parents, not the parents waiting for the kids. 


    Megan: The tides have shifted. 


    Friend: I had to walk in my day. 


    Megan: I was the child who wanted to walk so badly, but there was like a busy street between me and school. So I couldn't, I remember having a full meltdown about it. And my mom was like, please stop. 


    What did you do recently? Creatively. 


    Friend: So I was in London for work and that cramped my style a little bit because work hours. But I did manage to find a couple of the museums were open a little bit into the evening. And so I went to two of them. I managed to squeeze in two museum visits. What I love about the museums in London is that they're free. And I feel like that makes them more appropriate for a quick drop in because you don't feel like you have to get your ticket money worth. 


    Megan: For sure. 


    Friend: So went to the Tate Modern, which is one of my favorites, in the city because of the building, but also it's, you know, it's modern and contemporary art. I will say that I think the staff there. need to take more vitamin D they were or get some sunshine or just loosen up a little bit. Know that the staff were slightly contakerous but the art was stunning. 


    Megan: Word of the day, contakerous. 


    Friend: Thank you. No, I mean, it's, it's apt. There's no other way to describe these folks. I got yelled at on my way into the building, but all that aside, they had an exhibit on color and the use of color, which I thought was really fantastic. And if it is available online, I will link to it. 


    That's my favorite from like a building and type of art perspective. But, The National Gallery in Trafalgar Square is... it's so vast and you really can not take it all in. It's like the Louvre in a way, you know, you can't, uh, you can't digest it all. 


    It's too exhausting. So I made it my mission to just see one thing, which I was super excited to tell you about. Kehinde Wiley has, uh, has an exhibit on there now he's doing, it's called The Prelude and he has his own, what do we call it? Would we call it a gallery? 


    Megan: Yeah. A wing of exposition hall? 


    Friend: Um, it was two rooms, so I would call it, uh, it was a small wing. He has his own exhibit there. And, It was nice to see he started getting into film or maybe he always was, but there was a film that he had directed and created. So it was like live, imagery. And then there were some of his portraits where he's taken some of these classic, portraits of white people and he's, you know, done his thing on them and, 


    Megan: He's so good. 


    Friend: He's so good. 


    I, Megan, I was like, because these were these ones I could get closer to than the, uh, one of Obama. I don't understand what he is doing with his paint. it's, usually oil on linen. It looks like it's printed. It is so fine and perfect. 


    Megan: It doesn't make sense. You feel like you're looking at a human, not even a photograph. 


    Friend: That's right. The way that the skin, you know, the coloration on the skin and the way that the fabric is is depicted. I just like, I don't even have the right words for it. And so then I just stood there, like stuck. 


    Megan: You just gasp. It's not even a photo realistic because that almost feels too fake. These look like breathing humans. 


    Friend: Yes, 


    yes. And so I was so impressed and I don't do this, you know, that we have a very minimalist approach to life and I don't buy stuff. I bought the book for my coffee table. I don't even have a coffee table. 


    Megan: The book is the coffee table. 


    Friend: The book is the, I mean, how I have this book and I, because I wanted more time, like I wanted to read about his process and what was he thinking and how, why this one? And so on. It was really amazing. 


    Megan: I need to go to London, number one. Number two, I have that problem. There's a medical diagnosis for this, where you want to touch the paintings. And when I look at Kehinde Wiley's work specifically, when I go insane as an old woman, I will be in a museum, gently caressing the faces. I just feel it like I cannot hold my hands in my pockets. 


    Friend: Yes. I want to climb inside and like, 


    sit sit on the, 


    Megan: The horse. 


    Friend: Yes, sit on the horse. The one of them was, they're standing sort of on a cliff overlooking the ocean. And I wanted to, I felt like I could stand there with them. It was incredible. That's what's what. So Megan, have I just committed a faux pas in saying that I like these London museums, because they're free and I don't want to pay for them? And we're about to talk about pricing art. 


    Megan: I mean, you never could commit a faux pas if you tried.. She's faux pas-less, ladies and gents. 


    Um, if I spoke a little more French and by that, I mean more than 10 words I would talk about faux pas more, but that's all I've got. So, let's talk about pricing art. 


    Friend: Yeah, I think we should. The Main Exhibit. 


    Megan: So the museums free and the art well paid for. 


    Friend: That's right. The art very expensive. Yeah. It's an interesting one. I've been so interested to hear throughout our interviews so far on this season that, uh, pricing comes up a lot and not just because we forced it, but, you know, with a few of our guests we've heard and had those conversations. And so I thought, well, why don't we take that and, you know, talk about it a little more specifically. And We also had a question come in from a listener and" I'm just going to read it. " I love your podcast." I should have not read that part, but she said, she said it, so, so "my sister and I are just like you and Friend, I'm an artist and my sister is a CFO. Can you talk on your podcast about free or discounted work for friends and family? My sister ends up helping about 12 friends and family with their taxes every year. And I always feel funny about charging, full price for painting commissions, for friends and family. I would love to know how you and Friend handle this situation." 


    Isn't that good? First of all, thanks for reaching out. 


    Uh, we love hearing. Yeah, I know. We love hearing from people. We're happy to answer questions and make episodes of built around the topics. 


    That's super cool. so that was kind of the, I was like, well, let's talk about pricing in general and then pricing for friends and family and discounts. We're definitely going to get to that over the course of this episode. For me in my mind, there's two approaches to pricing. One is math, like what's the math about what goes into your price. And then one is strategy. So, what is, you know, what is your approach to it? Not from a mathematical perspective, but maybe more sort of philosophical or strategic, what does it say? 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: so I thought that there would probably be some things that I can pull from like corporate financial world to apply to the creative industry. And then I'm sure that you have lots of thoughts about this as well. 


    how does that sound? 


    Megan: Tell me your perspective. Like, what are your general thoughts on pricing for creative small business? 


    Friend: Oh, Yeah. 


    I mean, the more I get into it, the more I think that is like a nearly impossible task. I don't think there is any right answer. I think it is a giant experiment and you just have to keep tinkering, you know, pull this lever, pull this lever and see what happens. I think that you and I I'll just say right. up front in this conversation are not going to really be giving advice about how to. Every creative business is different. Every, You know, segment and depending on where you live in the world, the medium, you know, it's just, there's just too much variation and well, you may hear our voice. We don't hear yours. We don't know who's really listening. And so it's hard for us to really give advice, but, my general thoughts are that, oh my what a difficult challenge. 


    And so just like anything, just like what we did with the risk conversation, when I'm faced with something that's like big and nearly impossible and scary is I just break it down into little questions that I can answer. And so I think that's maybe what we do. 


    Megan: Perfect. We spoke to the Eve of the economist and I liked that. She told us to not think of the big picture all the time. Right. So what you're saying is that essentially as well, it's like break it up into small choices. And I think sometimes that's the daunting task. When you run the business by yourself. I mean, everyone in the, on your side of the world says to do this, to take it small chunks. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: On the creative end of the spectrum, people think they have to solve the problem in one decision. That's just not, that's not how it is, but I like this. It's good for me. 


    Friend: So let's, uh, let's have like a strategic conversation about pricing and then we can get to some math, in a gentle way. It's very, very simple math, 


    Megan: Gentle math. 


    Friend: Gentle math. So when I think about pricing strategy, what do I mean? I mean, like, what goes into it? How do you think about it? Why are you doing this? what is your, you know, what, message are you trying to say? What have you tried? And hasn't worked. That's what I mean about it. Can I just sort of hit you with some, 


    Megan: Yeah. Hit me. 


    Friend: And we'll just kind of tease it out and use you as the live case. All right. so right now, today, when you think about pricing, how do you go about what are the things that go into your pricing decision and why are they included or excluded, if you leave something out? 


    Megan: Yeah. I mean, well, let's start with this. We started to touch this topic a lot with Amanda, the artist in episode eight. And if you remember her reaction to this question, It's a really tough topic for artists specifically. I mean, artists. So I'm speaking from just the artist perspective. as an artist, I feel like I have to wrestle with the idea of selling the work, which is my idea, which is actually like my diary. 


    I mean, it sounds so dramatic, but it is very personal. So it's something you're creating that is like your heart and soul. And so selling that inevitably you just feel like a sellout. So that's what Amanda sort of touched on when we were talking about it with her. I have had to separate my own feelings about the work I produce from the fact that I need to make dollars. 


    Right. So I've had to separate my emotion from the fact that I have to run a business, not have to, but have chosen to. So I don't have an answer that will work for everyone, but I personally have a formula, which I know you'll be shocked to hear, so ideally I want to make X amount of dollars. 


    Right? Each year I try and double my take home, which I know like is a loose number. And when I say I want to double each year it's because when you first start as an artist, you make $12. So doubling that simple. No, I'm joking. But my point is, it's not like I'm doubling six figures. I'm S I'm still doubling small amounts and I don't work full-time yet full disclosure. 


    So in my small amount of studio time, I try and at least make more each year in order to do that, I have to raise my prices each year. I also have to outsource certain things each year, so that my time, which is my most valuable asset is accounted for. Right. for me personally, I have to sort of say, I want to make X amount of money, and now I can look at years and years of data on this and work backwards. I recommend everyone make a formula for themselves. 


    Friend: So your formula, you know, when you do formulas, you are solving for X, right? 


    So you, you know, there is an unknown in there somewhere. It sounds like for you, the unknown is not as much, or you're saying I want it to equal this. And so therefore the exit you're solving for is it volume? 


    Megan: It's output for sales. You might say. One thing I've been pleasantly surprised with though, as I do this little formula, my output has surpassed what I thought it could be given the hours I have. 


    So what I'm telling you is I underestimate myself mathematically and generally, but if I want to make X amount each year, it's not the number of paintings that I'm selling. It's more about like, I have changed the size of the paintings I'm selling, selling big paintings is a better use of my time, but I like it more also. So that works right. That's one example. 


    Friend: yeah, 


    Megan: it's also how much risk do you take in a year financially? How much overhead do you have 


    Friend: Okay, Right? Yeah, We're definitely going to talk about that. Okay. So, in terms of strategy and an approach to pricing, it sounds like you're very outcome driven and, you know, this is what I need to walk away with. And so I'll, I'll do what I need to do the, the work product to get to that. Okay. Interesting. All right. 


    Megan: it works for right now. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: my family conditions were different or if I was a single person or if I lived in a different city, all of these, factors will be different. 


    Friend: Okay. All right. I know you touched on the, emotional attachment, or the sort of selling your diary. Amanda mentioned that she's basically pricing them at what she's willing to let it go for, which is different from, you know, some products we assume that price relates to quality. Whereas here, I feel like what I'm hearing is price relates to emotional value. So let's use jewelry as an example, or a, custom made dress. The quality of the fabrics and of the metals and so on is likely to determine the price. Right. Are you selling a high-end or a low-end product? Is it at the top of the market or is it, is it like entry-level you can think about this for handbags shoes, right. Everything. But I don't know if a painting has that same, like, is there, is there some quality scale on a painting? 


    Megan: The longer I'm in this, the answer is, yes. This is why I'm trying not to price emotionally, because I do know that if I charge more, I will spend more time working on a painting to make it perfect, including many steps, even involving in like shipping or packaging, you know, like all the, the I's will be dotted and all the T's will be crossed. Right. If it's a quick, fast turnout of work, you're not, you're not able to do that. So I do think there's a bit of quality involved. I also think just to give you an idea, there's a baseline, a square inch price for art. So yeah, this is like a real, it's an industry standard. If you will. So beginning artists or emerging artists or whatever you want to call them it's recommended in like art school that you price your work, per square inch. Okay. So if you look at artists, this is for emerging a dollar square. 


    Friend: That doesn't make sense. 


    Megan: So. like a 24 by 24 equals what? was a bad example because I can't do it. 


    Friend: Well, that's why I'm just like, wait. So if it's a small, if it's an eight by 10 


    Megan: You're charging $80 


    for that work. It's not enough. 


    Friend: It's not enough 


    Megan: It's also not taking into consideration what it's made of. 


    So 


    Friend: Who made up that, that sounds like, just made up out of the sky. 


    Megan: It's truly like made up, this is why this is hard yeah, this is why this industry is hard. Also. I, it's not the same across mediums. So if you're doing like a color pencil drawing, that's one thing and you're doing an oil painting that takes years to complete. 


    It shouldn't cost $80. Right? So that's one factor in a variety of factors. An emerged artist, a middle like an intermediate artist or an established artist, which I now fall into that category should be charging, probably double that. And I'm close to double that in my pricing. Also, I use acrylic paints, which are cheaper than oil paints. 


    Friend: cheaper, 


    Megan: Cheaper to purchase 


    Friend: purchase. 


    Megan: and quicker drying. So I'm spending perhaps less time than an oil painter would on one given piece. So like mathematically, you can try and, put that together. And then the opposite end of that spectrum is I really admire a woman artists named Ashley Longshore. She's like a sensation she's super famous. She's hilarious. Irreverent is the word that comes to mind for her in a good way. Like aspirationally. I want to be like that. And she prices her work however, she pleases and I really admire that because people purchase it because they want piece of her art. 


    Friend: right. And that relates to what Evie was saying You have to understand what your audience wants and you have to have a following. And once you have that, then you, can get the price for it. But until there's that demand, like there's a little bit here about supply and demand. Right. So if nobody wants it they don't want it at any price. 


    Megan: right. And then how do you start a job when you are basically making up a whole career? And you're like, please buy this thing. You 


    know, that's really, it's impossible. It's quite impossible at the beginning. 


    Friend: Yeah. Have you ever gone back and looked at any of Ashley's pieces with a known price that, that, you know, It's sold for and looked at the size of it and worked out what her dollar per inches 


    Megan: It's high. It's like shockingly high. I will link to her work in the show notes. We'll we'll link to her. 


    Friend: we can, yeah, Okay, so the question is, do you think in paintings, we can have a look at the quality is based on what is it, the quality of your artistry of your artistic talent? Or is it the quality of the materials or is it quality of the Like what, you're saying as you've been in this longer, you think? Yes. But what's determining whether it's high or low quality? 


    Megan: I'm not sure. I think there's an equal emphasis on quality because it's like the person has a studio, a studio assistant, a shipping department, you know what I mean? Like the there's a higher quality when it's multiple people helping. The outcome, which is you getting the art in your home. They might even have an installer come to hang the art for you. You know what I mean? You're getting a full service. 


    Friend: That's different service. The service is different from quality. If you think about let's go back to my $250 t-shirts. Right. So if you think about a t-shirt that came from Amazon, which was maybe $8 And they made it in, Vietnam or Bangladesh, or you think about, Pima, cotton from maybe Everlane, Everlane is not at the super high end, but you know, they, they have very nice quality cotton. 


    it could be the same crew, neck, short sleeve, uh, wine colored. T-shirt. The price will be an indicator to you of the difference of how that fabric feels in your hands. 


    Megan: Oh yeah. 


    Friend: Is there something like that, that tangible the way it feels or looks not the service? Cause that's a different, that's a different component. 


    Megan: You're right. I don't know how to say this without sounding like a jerk, but there is a way to tell when you look at emerging artists work, I think the factor is time. I look at my initial work and it was not good. I'm going to use myself as an example. So I don't hurt anyone's feelings. 


    My art year one wasn't good because I wasn't, I had not practiced enough with the materials make the paint what it's supposed to do. 


    Friend: right? Okay. 


    Megan: you look at a painting by an unexperienced painter, and you can tell that they haven't yet mastered how to control X, Y, or Z, whatever the medium is. 


    Friend: Okay, perfect. 


    So that it is hard to say, but I'm also more than willing because, you know, I showed you that painting. I did, um, the first painting I've ever done and like, it's, I know you didn't get to feel it, but I can look at it and be like, it's kind of cool. cause I finished it. But like, there's something weird about it. There's something, you know, and I was trying with a knife and trying, you know, learning about the different brushes and whatever. Like it's very disorderly. It's rough. Whereas what we were just talking about with Kehinde 


    Megan: Not rough. 


    Friend: see the brush, like, you don't even believe it's painted with a brush, right? 


    Megan: okay. So I used to get offended because people would call my paintings watercolors. And I was like, I don't paint with watercolor paint, but I think what they mean is that it doesn't look like acrylic paint, which is in fact. No truly because acrylic paints are rough. And so if you ever dabble in like for fun acrylic painting, it always looks like garbage because it's chunky. It's, plastic-y it dries, shiny and lumpy. So if you can master that over time, it's the same as mastering anything. There's a woman. I follow her paintings are worth hundreds and thousands of dollars. She uses colored pencil. That's it? Bella McGoldrick. It's mindblowing. She's using colored pencils. 


    Friend: what you use in school? 


    Megan: Yes. 


    Friend: Like pencil crayons. Did we call them that? 


    Megan: She paints with pencils, I would say. And it is photo realism, but more and with a colored pencil. So my point is I think the mastery of the material is what makes it non-Amazon t-shirt and more luxury cotton. 


    Friend: Okay, exactly. And that exactly we got there in the end, but I think the journey was important because for other artists, I think what the takeaway here is be honest with yourself that there is a scale of the quality of your work and where you are. You, you have, maybe this is where whatever he was saying, like get an honest friend or get a partner, you know, somebody to be like a human embodiment of truth in your life. you have to make that assessment. Unless you want people to think you're crazy and you're selling a, you know, a garbage cotton for $250 a t-shirt right? 


    in my mind, that should be part of your, your pricing strategy is where am I on the quality scale? And if I'm at the high end, which I would say, I mean, I have sat in front of your paintings and gotten lost in the beautiful brushstrokes and how the paint sits on the, like I would say it's high quality. 


    Megan: Well, that's very generous. 


    Friend: and so, but so for you, then that's part of the confidence that goes into the confidence of saying, this is why it's priced this way, because it's quality work. Right. 


    Megan: I just shared a booth at the art fair that I just recently did with a guard, a good friend of mine, who we met on Pinterest. 


    Friend: What, 


    Megan: Like, how does it happen? 


    Friend: think it was that interactive. 


    Megan: I know we don't know how it happened, but she's a lovely person. And it turns out where neighbors like truly very close. She, paints with gold leaf, which inherently makes her paintings more expensive. Right? Like it's gold. So her name is Tara Andres. We'll link to her, but she. Hey, Megan, raise your prices. Hey, Megan, raise your prices because she is like, she gets it. So 


    Friend: yeah, 


    Megan: she's very good at separating the emotion from the technicality. 


    Friend: Yeah. exactly. 


    Yeah. And I actually think it's quite helpful to have, something to focus on other than the emotional. I think that if you look at the technicals of it, if that's what we call it, and I'm going to get to that when we get to the math, is that the inputs, the costs, Right. It helps you to be less emotional about it and more, more just business. Like this is business. this is your superior cotton. So take it or leave it it's the same with leather, right. and sorry to our vegan friends, but, you know, people are still buying leather handbags, in some places and some of us love our leather handbags for better, for worse. 


    Megan: Right. 


    Friend: and we can tell that when we walk into a target and pick up a bag, 


    it's not the same as when you're in, you know, in Barcelona or, or somewhere in Italy, where the leather is like the most beautiful top of the line. Like you can feel it 


    it's the same here and price accordingly. 


    Megan: Word. 


    Friend: Word. All right. So that's one aspect of, pricing strategy. Another question for you is looking around, you know, what's happening in the market. What's happening? I don't know if I would necessarily say competition, but what are, similar producers What does that journey look like for you? 


    Megan: When I started, I definitely researched people who painted similar, medium, similar style, maybe similar subject matter, even similar age group. When you're emerging is applicable. And then once you're emerged like a butterfly, once you're established, yes, it's not no longer relevant, but when you're emerging, it is, I think a person fresh out of art school can talk to peers and they can price their work accordingly. 


    Right. I wasn't that young when I started professionally, but I was pretty young. And so I felt like at least a group of peers was kind of obvious, like on the internet. So I use their work as sort of a rough guideline, some much higher than mine, some lower. And I sort of sat in the middle to start just to give me an idea of where to begin. And then I realized like I could figure out my own formula. So Yes. 


    Friend: Yes. 


    Megan: can look what the competition is doing. You can look at your peers, but you have to do your research because their factors are different. Right. Where you 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: Do you have children to pay for, stretch your own canvas or do you buy it pre-made like, there's so many factors involved. So I think, you know, it's just like a starting point. 


    Friend: Yeah, it's one of the inputs. And I like that you called them factors because what you just mentioned, there were, things like, you know, the environment in which you're selling you touched on a quality item again, you know, so that's where I'm saying, like, just, like we did with the risk topic. I want us to start thinking about things in buckets. So what is the factor here relating to quality? What is the factor here for what I want to say with my pricing and what is, what is it when it comes to the cost of items and what is it when it comes to, discounting and so on. So it's like, answer all the questions individually. 


    Megan: Yes. 


    Friend: And then look at what you have and say, does this make sense for, you know,. To consider all of these factors. A final one that I would ask you about when we're thinking about approach to pricing from a strategic perspective is it's kind of a big one and it's, it can be controversial. I know people sit on both sides of this, but I think that artists should be asking themselves, I discount? And even service providers, right? Like this is my time I'm, I'm investing. as a service provider, will I ever discount? And if I will in what scenarios and with whom will I discount? 


    Megan: This question is awful. 


    I will not answer. What I don't like is that I really am at the point now where I can say confidently, no, I'm not going to discount much more often because here's why I don't make a single cent if I discount my work. Truly I've worked out the equation, right? Like I know if I bump it down to one third, the price I'm making $0 or worse yet I'm taking a hit. 


    That's not good. You wouldn't want to do that to a friend. Right. And I understand that it's not in everyone's budget to own original art. It's just not, I barely own any myself. So it's not like I'm coming from this from my ivory tower. I just have to be ruthless because I need to have dollars to pay for my business. 


    So I often try and tell myself, I just can't do it anymore. Unless it's a painting that's been sitting around forever or it's like slightly damaged then. Yes, of course I can discount something that's scratched or dented or whatever, but overall, I'm not asking for a discount on like my car repair, my plumbing services, my gardening guy. Like, I don't definitely don't want to hire a discount babysitter. Like I actually pay extra because I want them to do a good job. 


    Friend: Yeah, exactly. 


    Megan: So I kind of have to think of it that way. 


    Friend: Yeah, I think that's so good. love hearing that. You're thinking about it that way. I think we have to think about why would we, why would we like ask the other side of a question? Why would you discount? What are you trying to accomplish by discounting? And if you think about retailers with inventory, like clothing and so on, why do they discount? They're discounting because they want to move merchandise that they can't sell. And so, for artists, listen to the message that, that sending to both yourself and your customers, if you're discounting like literal translation of discount is like to devalue or to like, not count it. like you are taking away from the value of something. 


    Megan: it's a bummer. 


    Friend: like, if something is not selling it's because people don't want it. it's 


    Megan: So true 


    Friend: so basic. Like if you have to drop the price to sell it, maybe it inappropriately priced, but it's because the demand isn't there. 


    Megan: or you're selling it at the wrong place, your audience isn't the right audience. And that's 100% the case for me, I will discount works on paper on occasion just to do like a quick Instagram sale, because I have like a following of people who have bought literally 20 paintings. Like there are people who just keep buying things. And so they're sort of like a VIP segment of this, 


    Friend: sure. 


    Megan: but That's sort of different works on paper. There's basically no overhead for me. 


    Friend: Right. And that's, we'll get to the discount, the effect of discounting on the math, but the effective discounting from a strategic perspective is the message that it sends. And so I think it goes again, back to the truth telling I think that if people don't want it it may not be about the price. And so you need to pivot and you need to figure out what it is like, how do you create something that people want not, how do you price it to get rid of it? 


    Megan: Or stop selling to your peers, sell to people who want it. 


    Friend: Yes. 


    Megan: That's the trick. That's the golden ticket right there. 


    Friend: Exactly. So when it comes to, you know, know this, this listener has said, like, she feels funny charging, full price. I guess my question would be like, what's funny about covering a, your costs and B your need to live. why does anyone deserve to not pay you for your work? I don't. 


    Megan: there's some deeply rooted there. 


    Friend: yeah, 


    Megan: can tell you it's rooted in being a woman pursuing a career. That seems fictional being told by professors. Like this'll never work for you. I mean, there's a lot ugly, ugly, baggage 


    Friend: yeah, I that. And I say, let's find a different solution to the baggage, then reducing the price. I just, I don't know that it accomplishes what we're trying to accomplish. 


    Megan: No. 


    Friend: So that's the strategic part of it. Those are some questions that when you're thinking about pricing in order to detach a little bit from the emotional, can you look at what your peers are doing, the quality of the work and whether you will, or won't what message you want to send with the place that you price it and 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    So good. 


    Friend: do you have any other sort of questions that don't involve math that when it comes to pricing that you think we should talk about? 


    Megan: I think you should just me with the math. 


    Friend: Okay. All right. Let's get into it. Pricing math dent into, 


    Megan: Scary. I feel tricked and duped. 


    Friend: I was always a good, we're always going to go here. So, all right. Here's the thing, right. it's it's really very simple. And I love what Amy said. Um, when we were talking to Amy, the accountant about like, she doesn't do any more complex math and then addition and subtraction, right. It's the same thing here. And it's just, I think Amy would, appreciate our take on this. Like just put the right things in the right bucket. You just picture like you have a basket and in one of the baskets is costs. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: So what did you spend? And then in another bucket, you, what did you spend for that particular item in another bucket? 


    You have overhead, which you've mentioned a couple of times, we'll talk about that. And then in a third bucket, you have profit, you know, you have margin like that is the little extra that is not tangible, like the other two things. Okay. When you put those three things together, what you should have is your price. 


    And so the unknown or the X factor for a lot of us is the profit. So like any good formula you're solving for X, you work on the other ones first, Right. You make sure that, you know, what's happening with the other pieces. So costs, let's start with the cost bucket. Um, so I I think it's helpful to think about costs as direct expense for a specific item. So in your world, what would that look like? so let's say you get commissioned to do a painting. 


    Megan: Right. So I have to purchase the canvas or make it myself. So there's time or supplies, the colors of paint, some of which are more expensive than others. Many of which are really expensive. I have an example here for you too bad this isn't a vlog. 


    This is a tube of paint. It's two fluid ounces. It's about six inches tall. 


    It costs anywhere from 15 to $25. 


    Friend: For two ounces. it's like an expensive face cream. 


    Megan: Right. But I'm like, oh gosh. I mean, 


    Friend: How much of that? Can you 


    Megan: you know, like, do I, do I, do I like squirrel it away and only use like a little bit? No, sometimes the client wants that color and then you just, you go with it. You also then account for the frame. Are they getting it framed? Am I taking it to the framer for them? 


    Are they going with the luxury option or going with basic option the hour spent painting, emailing the client, having a client call, having multiple calls, making the invoice, sending the invoice, resetting the invoice. You know, the admin? 


    Friend: Do you have, an hourly rate for yourself that you use for all of these things? You don't okay. 


    Megan: because I not yet, I guess is my answer. Talk to me in September. 


    Friend: okay. 


    Megan: my hours are horrible Right. now because I'm a mother of small children, 


    Friend: Right, but it's not, uh, it's not the number of hours. It's the what? Like what do you pay a babysitter per hour? 


    Megan: 20. bucks. 


    Friend: So what do you, what do you think your physician makes an hour? I don't know, maybe 150 or 200 or something like that. What do you do? You know what I mean? Like every profession has as an effective, hourly rate that you can kind of get to by estimate. When we talk about the hour spent painting the hours, spent emailing the client that, you know, driving to have it shipped. You may not have the same hourly rate on all of those items. Cause it might be that you're More valuable as a painter than you are as an email or a and when you got to the, you know, the artists that has the person working with them. And right? though, those people in that studio would be paid at different hourly rates. But the point is that for that one painting, there were hours that went into it and those hours should have a rate. So that's, that's, those are great, by the way, you just, you just like nailed. I give you an, a plus on that. So in your accounting and pricing exam costs, your costs, basket is full for this painting. you know, you've identified all the things that you put in the basket. So for others listening and thinking about their own pricing, it's going to be different in the basket. Right. Chi-Chi talked about hers, her time on shoot and her, editing time. 


    Megan: yeah. 


    Friend: So everybody's basket is going to be different, but the container is the same. 


    Okay. So fill that container first. Cause it's the easiest one to fill it's the most tangible. 


    Megan: Yes. 


    Friend: Okay. The next most tangible container is overhead overhead expenses. So we, what size was the painting? We just cost it out. 


    Megan: Four feet by six. feet. So we're at 48 by 72. So like $3,200. 


    Friend: okay? All right. Okay. So that's our starting point. So already you have undercharged me. If, if you, if you tell me that? painting is $3,200, you've undercharged me. 


    Megan: I know. That's the problem. 


    Friend: I know. I know it's a problem, but let's keep going. Let's keep going. Let's keep going. So then we're moving into the next basket. The next basket is overhead. 


    That's indirect expenses. that if you didn't paint that four by six, for me, you had the many ways you're going to have them throughout the year. So some of those things might be, if you rent a studio, Uh, you pay an accountant? 


    Megan: Yeah, 


    Friend: Okay. that that's not, you're not paying that accountant because of my four by six painting 


    Megan: right, 


    Friend: Right. So that's what I mean by indirect, they're not tied to one piece of art they're spread across. but they need to be still covered because you can never make up that if all of your paintings are only priced with your first basket of costs, you can never cover the costs of your second basket. Let alone give yourself anything extra. 


    Megan: Uh, yes. I would just like to pause there and let you know that the artists are all shrieking, like everyone's shrieking, because I want you to understand that emerging and established artists, most of the time are living I don't want to say paycheck to paycheck, but painting to painting. I just want to tell you that's the reality of it. Many people are not, I don't want to like swath it over the whole group, but it's um, feast or famine baby. 


    Friend: I know. Which is why I go back to, and this is why I'm glad we're having this episode now in the chain. And we've talked to all of these other wise women, which is why Evie was saying, if you're going to do what you love and create beauty and be in this kind of business, you might just need a partner and you might just need somebody who's honest. 


    And you might, you know what I mean? Like you might end, like you talked about the scaffolding of your business. You might not be able to just sell one painting and then famine. Right. So there, there has to be this reality check around. Okay, that's fine. you can't price exactly what you need to on each painting from the beginning. And maybe you're not selling enough of them, but what else is paying the bills? Right. And we talked to Amanda and she was doing the graphic design and we know you're doing the teaching and So it's that's right. That's right. Exactly. So, but nevertheless, we have to still cover the overhead. 


    Somehow it might not be in the price of the painting. Ideally I'm, I'm walking us down a path to the price of the painting covers everything else. But in reality, not everyone is there. I hear you. 


    Okay. So it's things like bank fees, you know, you need internet, you have to pay for zoom. 


    those are basically shared. So you have to do some, some estimates or some division of sharing that cost. So maybe you look at it on a monthly basis. Here's my overhead. And then I I'm going to sell five paintings. So I divide the overhead by five. right. But you have that, that sort of bucket. 


    Okay. Then we get to what I thought was going to be the scariest one, but it sounds like maybe it's overhead, the last basket is profit. 


    Megan: No, really? I love the profit. 


    Friend: This is where it gets fun. and this is where I really encourage women, especially to like, Leave themselves some margin and pay themselves, you know, like you give yourself some something to work off of here, something to retire off of. So with your profit, you're able to reinvest in your business if you want to. And you're able to save and put a little away for a rainy day and you can pay yourself. you know, some people do it quarterly. Some people like you can give yourself a salary or, share of profits depending on how the business is structured, which means that now we have three components. If you stop at the first one, you can't cover the second one and you'll never make any money. 


    So when you're pricing a painting, you go you said 3,200, let's say your overhead works out to another. 300 just for simplicity. So now we're at 3,500 for that painting. And let's say on every painting, you'd like to be able to save $200 for retirement or whatever, or a hundred dollars for supplies for the next painting. So then you, you know, you need to charge between 3,500 and say 4,000, so that's kind of the, the mindset of a little margin, a little extra on top of, it's not greedy. 


    Megan: No. 


    Friend: It's, hopefully not impossible if people want your paintings. right. They need to they're trying to support you to live, not just to paint, not just to grind, but to like, be able to go out for a date night and buy yourself a nice pair of shoes. Right. 


    Megan: right. 


    Friend: I mean, that's my ideal is a date night and a nice pair of shoes. 


    Megan: and shoes. Truly. It's all I want. 


    Friend: So thoughts on that? Is that like, 


    Megan: it's achievable. I mean, th the formula is kind of like made me take a deep sigh. It's just that it's not often taught. I don't know if that is, it's taught now, but when I went to, you know, state school and the art department, it wasn't like a thing we were crunching numbers about around it should be. 


    Friend: Yeah. hard when it's a theoretical like that when you don't have 


    customers and you don't have actual products, but you get into it, you know, over the years. And I, I know from our chats that you've, you've been able to shift this a little bit and maybe at the beginning, you're just barely. covering your costs. 


    Megan: barely. I mean, true. I can tell you years. One through three, I just was happy if my art paid for the art, right, like I would go to the art store with the profit and go on my little spending spree and buy the supplies and then make the next painting. And that felt like this is sustainable because I wasn't dipping into anything. 


    Friend: Right. And that's a pricing strategy, right? 


    That's an entry to market strategy, but that isn't where you live your whole career. 


    Megan: no, you can't quit your day job on that. 


    Friend: exactly, So you have to keep reevaluating and saying, am I out of that phase yet? 


    Megan: And it's nice when you exit that phase for me, step two was paying myself, which people debate about some artists don't pay themselves. That's fine. Whatever your needs are, is whatever you do. But I like to pay myself every two weeks, I cut myself a check to like the family fund. 


    Friend: Oh, to have some regular 


    Megan: And I like to brag about it endlessly to my husband. 


    Friend: Is 


    Megan: I'm not kidding. 


    Friend: where he's like, yeah, Okay. Megan, 


    Megan: It's like, yeah, everyone gets a paycheck every two weeks in the real world. I'm like, did you see. 


    Friend: Is it the same every week? Or is 


    Megan: No, sadly not 


    Friend: It's variable, right. 


    Megan: it's variable, but within sort of maybe a comfortable range now where I can kind of predict, but that was not the case years. Three to seven. I'm telling you now it's like more the case than ever, but I, I, love to tell him that I paid us. It's a pride thing. Right? So I've, spoken to, um, an artist coach who recommended doing that for me, because she knew that my value as an artist was attached to the money I was bringing in and she could tell when we talked. 


    So she was like, how about you just make a power move and pay yourself every two weeks and then you'll feel better about it. And I was like, you know what? That's brilliant. Simple, but brilliant. 


    Friend: And there are some people out there who are like, I don't like, they're just not even minded that way. it's just not in their desire list, which is cool. But, some of us are not minded that way and are very motivated by like, I earned that. That's my dollars. 


    Megan: right. Or, like you're paying the bills a different way and that's totally fine. Yeah. There's not like a right way to do these things. 


    Friend: but so I, I guess I would say that as you evolve in your pricing, whether it's in photography, in event planning, in painting, as you evolve, keep an eye on, you get to the point where the price that you're charging not discounting, in the end has an element of all three of those things. of your true costs specifically to the event or the product, your overhead on a monthly or regular basis. And then some, for you, some margin, for, you know, life. 


    Megan: Our two friends Justina and Kristin, who both were interviewed on this podcast would 100% agree with that. And I'd say that there are probably two of the most kind and genuine people we know, but are ruthless business owners, they're paying themselves well, and they're 


    Friend: They're not negotiating. 


    Megan: No. 


    Friend: they're saying, this is my price, there. They were both also you know, 10 or 15 years into it, around, so let's say average 10 years. 


    Megan: But they're also successful and it's because they're not discounting themselves. So this is all, it's all interwoven. 


    Friend: Exactly. So I think that, to kind of circle back to the question that we got from the listener, do you think that we've treated that one fairly and appropriately? 


    I mean, we can't tell them what to do, but, you know, the question put to us was how would you handle this situation? you know, I think we've given some ideas without getting into giving advice. 


    Megan: One more thought I have on this matter is I personally have seven benchmark for how many pro bono activities I'll do a year. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: So I'll donate one painting to a school gala. 


    Friend: Oh, cool. 


    Megan: one moment of my time to something cute and adorable that I can't resist and I'll do one or two discounted things for family and friends. Boom. 


    And that's part of the formula, 


    Friend: exactly. And that's part of you, you're a given persona, right? Like it's part of, we talked about this with Evie, like just have a, have a look at what you're going to give in a year. If you have that ability 


    Megan: Right. 


    Friend: be intentional about it. And then when, when asked for the 12th time, you can say, 


    Megan: sorry. 


    Friend: know, I'm sorry. but I've already done that three times this year. And that's the, that's the limit, you know, and pick your people that you're things for free for that you're giving things away to. And then you're not being not generous. You're being, you know, you're having boundaries and that sounds healthy. 


    Megan: Yes, 


    Friend: I didn't know you did that. That's really cool. 


    Megan: some topics that are irresistible. 


    Friend: Wait. So Like, if I wanted you to paint me a bunny, would you have 


    Megan: no, 


    Friend: out of the goodness of your heart? What I mean, no, don't give it away because then you'll get all these requests. no, no. no. 


    Megan: the Pandora's box is opening. If it's like cute children who want to learn about art, I'm like, I'm there. 


    Friend: Oh, that's cute. 


    Megan: if you can pay or not. 


    Friend: That's cute. Yeah. Well 


    Megan: I'm just a sucker. 


    Friend: ah, 


    Megan: But as a result, I have to be a little, I have to say no, thank you sometimes. 


    Friend: yeah, 


    Megan: All right. We're verbose. 


    Friend: we are. mean, I feel like I might've preached too much. 


    Megan: No, I like it. 


    Friend: I also would like to acknowledge that it's very easy for me to sit, in a corporate space and get a regular income and then be like, you should all charge more and don't discount. Like I understand, but I, I also would like to encourage, to just think about like, why we're doing things and what's the message being sent. 


    Megan: I also think you've dabbled enough in the creative world that you have a perspective that's worth listening to. I mean, many people have done both corporate and small business. Right. And so there are a lot of people out there that can talk from both sides of the aisle. 


    Friend: Yeah. you know, I've been in a position where I had a bunch of products that I thought were fabulous and that people were telling me we were fabulous, but they weren't buying. And, you know, tried, a little discounting and ended up deciding that this is not the right business at the right time, at the right place, with the right products and closing down and giving away. 


    Like, I didn't even discount. I had all my girlfriends over, we had a party and I gave away and I wrote off the items, like from an accounting perspective because, because it was, you know, I had already spent the money and real customers weren't buying them. So if real, customers who aren't like being charitable to me are not buying them, why should I ask the people who are trying to help me and being willing to pay a little bit? Why do I ask them for just pay a little less? Why don't I just give it to them? Cause they're like their heart's in the right place and I've already spent the money. so I have actually been in the, chair of this isn't working, people are not buying, do I tinker with discounting or do I say, you know what? 


    I actually need to go and get a job because it's not working. And, you know, and by the way, I've also been requested to discount myself, on a salary basis. like, I've had job offers for I'm like, you do not, you are not going to, I can't work for you. I can work for you halftime if you want, or like one day a week. Like you know, so it, it does come across a little bit, sometimes in corporate where, or, you know, people ask you to work on things that aren't your job or extra hour, you know, weekends and so on. And so it, it comes in, in a, in a sort of different format, I think it's all down to like boundaries and deciding where you're willing to, to give and not. 


    Megan: I agree. Okay. I think we have to end there because there's like 17,000 more topics, but we're going to have to split this. 


    Friend: Okay. 


    Megan: What do you say? 


    Friend: That sounds good. 


    Okay, so that's what we had for pricing. this is sort of pricing 1 0 1, it's our thoughts and ideas. thank you, Megan, for allowing us to use you and your business again, as an example, a live case. 


    Megan: I'm a real Guinea pig, but I really liked this conversation and I like breaking down the elements of pricing because I think it's so daunting. And I think it's not necessarily approached the right way by people in the creative world. And I think we need to take a chill pill collectively and remove the emotion if we can, from the conversation. 


    I know it's hard, it's impossible for a room full of artists to, to not feel emotionally about their art. I'm not asking people to do that, but I want people to be successful. Right? So the whole whole goal is to just feel confident about what you charge and eventually become successful over time. 


    Friend: Yeah, so from a homework perspective, I guess I would say very similar to what we did with the risk episode is see if you can, for your own business, categorize your costs for your goods or service. And, get a good handle on your overhead. 


    And then think a little bit about what would it mean to put in some margin in your pricing. And those are your three elements. And then, you know, do a little, a plus B plus C equals D and see like, are you comfortable with D and if not, which of the levers can you pull, you know, to adjust it. 


    Megan: I love that homework. I think it can be done like on a post-it note or 


    Friend: Yeah, totally. 


    Megan: or scary, so it's a good assignment. And I think it's kind of a relief to think about. 


    Friend: Yeah. And so that's for the artists in the room for the women in finance. I think that, if we all could just be, coming along in support, like talk to one of your artists, friends about it and be like, Hey, did you know if you ever need somebody to bounce an idea off of, from a pricing perspective? Like just be sort of available to 


    Megan: shoulder to cry on, but truly, I mean, having someone who's confident explain something that seems frightening is a huge gift. So sorry. You're doing pro bono work after we told you not to. Thank you. 


    Yeah. Got to help out. 


    Friend: As always, for listening to The Arts. 


    Megan: This is Megan of Art by Megan. 


    Friend: And her friend, your patron of the arts. 


    Megan: Wishing you more art. 


    Friend: And maybe, a better understanding of your money. 


    Megan: Thank you. 


    Yes. 


    Friend: Nice to see you. 


    Yeah.

Third and Fourth
Episode 011 - Guest Interview: Chi-Chi Ari

Our guest today is Chi-Chi Ari, an award-winning wedding and lifestyle photographer. Chi-Chi talks about the decision to move from pre-med to fashion design to photography, the evolution of her pricing strategy, and shooting George Clooney.

Listen, follow and review us on your go-to podcast directory: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | Google Podcasts

Show Notes

  • Guest: Chi-Chi Ari

    Chi-Chi’s website

    Chi-Chi’s Instagram

    Daily Ritual: Women at Work book

    The walking/ mind-clearing philosophy is called Passive Perception

    The Paris Apartment book

    Homework:

    Notice the art in the things you wouldn’t otherwise think about as art (esp film).

    Example films: Queen and Slim and The Lobster.

    We would love to hear from you! Email us your questions and ideas at podcast at artbymegan dot com

  • Friend: 


    Welcome to The Arts, a brand new podcast about art and money. I've spent my career managing at some of the world's largest financial institutions. So I can't tell you my name, but trust me, talking about money is my jam. 


    Megan: And I'm Megan, I'm an artist and a teacher. And now co-host of this amazing podcast. We're having this conversation because we came to a realization. We have no idea how the other person spends her workday. 


    Friend: Or her money. So let's chat about it. 


    Megan: On today's show, we are talking with one of the most talented photographers that we have both had the pleasure of working with. 


    Friend: Agreed. And honestly, also one of the most kind humans there is, we're so excited to talk with our friend Chi-Chi. 


    Megan: Oh, my gosh. I love her. She has such a beautiful eye for photography that honestly, I haven't encountered much. She's so talented. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    I'm hoping that we'll get to understand a little bit, Like what is her magic fairy dust formula. She's also stunning and I've talked to her about this. I've tried to persuade her to be a model and she has no interest in it. she could easily be subject. 


    Yeah. 


    Megan: She's one of those people you like walk into a coffee shop and you're like, whoa, 


    Friend: Whoa. Is someone famous here? Where's her entourage. 


    Megan: She also has like, not to be a nut job, but she has like an aura. Okay. Enough of us. 


    Sorry, Chi-Chi. We love you. And we're normal people. One little disclaimer, we are, a podcast that interviews, mostly women and women are also working moms. Many of our guests are moms with new little babies at home working during what we like to still call the pandemic. I mean, whatever is happening. 


    Friend: Which makes them very impressive. 


    Megan: I mean, true heroes is what's happening here 


    on this podcast, 


    but, we have our guests Chi-Chi today and her guest podcast. 


    Friend: Yeah, very sweet. A very sweet little extra guest. 


    Megan: So if you hear little peeps in the background, that's why. 


    Friend: And, if you want to know the cuteness behind the 


    noise, you can definitely find it on Chi-Chi's Instagram. 


    Megan: I'm like squealing. 


    Friend: Yeah. Cool. So that's, you know, hopefully it's not too distracting. We won't apologize for it because we think what Chi-Chi has to say is pure gold And it's worth a little bit of background noise to get her to speak to us. 


    Megan: And if you're a guy and you don't like it, then just turn off the podcast. 


    Friend: Listen to the next episode. That's fine. 


    Megan: Or just find one for men. 


    Friend: Or just go and thank your partner for being amazing. 


    Megan: Anyway, sorry about all the shots fired, but 


    Friend: yeah. I mean, there's nothing, this is why I want to just like say it because it's not, we are not perfect. We're never going to be perfect. And we 


    Megan: No. 


    Friend: be, want real women telling us about their real lives. 


    Megan: But first, The Scene. 


    Friend: The Scene. All right. So, um, what's trending in the arts slash finance world this week? 


    All right. I've got a book for you. I'm so excited. I've been waiting all week until this recording session. Right now. I have a book that was written just for you, Megan. It is called daily rituals, women at work. 


    Megan: It's like the podcast. 


    Friend: You, know, it. 


    Megan: I know it, but I love it and I want to go reread it. So don't, don't worry. 


    Friend: Okay. So it is like the podcast. the book is called Daily Rituals, Women at Work by Mason Curry. this was in my library, a yard sale, or I just grabbed everything that said art. 


    it is, like the podcast. It's an easy read, quick little snippets and stories. It's all about how these artists get their work done. What are their patterns? What are their habits? When are they on? When are they off? What did the people around them observe? I thought you would love it if you've already read it fine. 


    But for those who are enjoying this podcast, which we hope is everyone, I would recommend it. It's a, It's a great read. I think it would actually be a nice coffee table book. 


    Megan: Totally. It's a good conversation topic also, did you find a common thread a little bit? 


    Friend: I haven't quite finished it yet, but I'm so far surprised at how many of these women are no longer living and found that in their latest years they had This need to produce. It was like, as we get older, we realize that time is limited. And so we become more prolific. And that so far has been my, my real takeaway is like, don't waste time when you're young, because when you're old, you're going to wish you had been working harder. 


    Megan: Yes. 


    Friend: What was your, what were you getting at? 


    Megan: Mine is not as exciting or inspirational. just noticed that they all take walks a lot. Like everyone's walking, walking, constant walking like everyone's ritual is to go from. 


    Friend: Well, it's mind resetting. 


    Megan: Yes. There's a, there's a term for this where you're not looking for information, but passively absorbing, maybe it's a Julia Cameron thing from The Artist's Way, but there's a, philosophy on this where you must passively absorb things in order to be creative. I'll work on that for you. 


    Friend: We should have a look at that. But I definitely do this in my own work. And sometimes I feel bad because we're definitely a culture of Like bums in seats. The only way we know you're working is if you're sitting in front of your computer, but most of the problems that I solve at work are solved while I'm running, playing tennis, riding my bike, walking, sleeping. 


    Do you know what I mean? 


    Megan: Yeah. Like it's like your brain has to be in motion sometimes, you know? 


    Friend: I give myself permission to, to not be seen sitting at my desk. I don't care if someone comes by and they're like, where were you I'm like, ah, I was solving your problem while I was sipping tea. 


    Megan: In motion. 


    Friend: You're welcome. 


    Megan: I was in motion. Thanks Steve. 


    Friend: Is that your character? 


    Megan: Well, you, a guy at work that wears a polar fleece vest is named Steve or like Rick. I was in motion, Rick. Thanks. Just answer them that and don't follow up and be like, we're done here. 


    Friend: All right, what's happening? in your part of the world. 


    Megan: I'm sorry to report, but I'm reading a murder mystery. 


    I don't ever read novels like this. It has nothing to do with this podcast, but I'm telling you all. You're welcome. Have you read Lucy Foley's books? 


    Friend: No, I do not read anything mysterious or suspenseful because then I can't sleep. 


    Megan: No, no, this isn't like that. 


    Friend: That's how my brain reacts to suspense is to not sleep. 


    So no, tell me about it. 


    Megan: For some reason it's not gory. There's no mention of anything disgusting, which I think is a trigger for me. This is just an intellectual mystery. So I'm currently reading The Paris Apartment. It's like this, who done it? 


    Thing? can't say anything or I'll ruin the whole story. 


    Friend: That's it. That's all you get. I think that's enough. A Paris apartment. 


    Megan: Read 


    Friend: Do you find when you're reading these types of books, that you don't get anything else done because it's such a page turner. You have to get it done. You have to finish it? 


    Megan: I literally ignored my children last night. I was like, you're on your own. I got to get to the bottom of this mystery. They were like, mom dinner. I was like, hold on. 


    Friend: Just order it. Just be like here's Uber eats. 


    Megan: You'll be fine. Just go to the fridge. 


    Yeah. So that's that? 


    Friend: Okay. Let's do this thing. 


    The Main Exhibit. 


    Megan: are super excited today to be joined by a good friend of ours, Chi-Chi, a super talented lifestyle and wedding photographer. That we both love. Chi-Chi has been featured in Harper's Bazaar. Yes. You heard that correctly and Bride's Magazine and is extremely talented and well loved. 


    Thank you for joining. 


    Chi-Chi: Thank you. It's so exciting to be here. 


    Friend: Welcome Chi-Chi. We're glad that We were able to snag you for, for a few minutes. We know you're so busy, with all of your life and business, whirlwind of events. thank you for finding time for us. We're excited to interview you. I would also just like to say that you have somehow managed to capture both of us in our awkwardness separately with our families in our awkwardness and make us look stunning. 


    Megan: Truly, it's a, gift. 


    Friend: That's a magic gift. 


    Yeah. 


    Chi-Chi: It's awesome to be here. I'm so excited to see you two. And you guys have been great to work with. 


    Megan: Thank you. 


    Friend: Three tall ladies, the average height on this call 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah. 


    Friend: is almost six feet. 


    Megan: But anyways, we just, should we do this? Should we do this. podcast? I can't wait. I'm actually having a hard time controlling my excitement, which is audible to the, to the listeners. 


    Friend: Please excuse the fidgeting. 


    Megan: Please excuse my ex my like feelings. Chi-Chi, what is your average day, or is there an average day as a photographer? 


    Chi-Chi: Well, I would say there are two types of days, so they're our shoot days and they're non shoot days. So shoot days are probably the most exciting. I usually prepare all my equipment the day before. So I'm out, I'm shooting, I'm, you know, interacting with the client. If it's a wedding, it's, it's a full day. So just kind of like, on set all day. Other shoots, some are longer than others, but really like the day is focused on the shoot. I come home, I put my memory card in the computer and just like download the photos immediately because I can never lose one. So. Those are shoot days. Non shoot days a little bit more flexible. A lot of admin work, a lot of post-work. So that's editing photos from the previous shoot or, preparing for an upcoming shoot, researching, coordinating with the, clients and just all that preparation. And then of course, working on my marketing and sales and all the things to run a business. 


    Friend: What is the split, would you say between shoot days and admin days? 


    Chi-Chi: Mostly admin days. shoot days, you know, are mostly if it's a wedding usually on the weekend. and then I do have like some smaller shoots, like spread out through the week, maybe like on a Thursday or Friday. So most of the big chunk of it is just the post work and admin work and putting everything together. 


    Friend: behind the scenes. 


    Chi-Chi: A lot of behind the scenes and also learning, that's like a big part of what I do is just like, you know, expanding my skills. So even on, um, on a not official shoot day, I might just create a shoe for myself just to like, keep practicing, keep learning, or, you know, take a class like in an online class or read, or even like listen to blogs and podcasts and stuff like that. 


    Just like trying to keep expanding my skills. 


    Friend: Yeah, that's cool. What is it about this career that was attractive to you? 


    Chi-Chi: Honestly, I I've always been a curious creative, so, I just have like so many interests when it comes to creative work and. I think it all falls together because I love memory. I love capturing memory and I've been keeping a journal since I was like 10. so I really fell into it. I just, I always had a camera in hand, especially when I moved to New York, because there's so much to see in New York, you know, it's New York. And so I just always had a camera in hand, always taking photos. And from there, I just like kept building up with it. 


    Friend: You weren't always, in this, right. Was this something you knew from a child would be a good fit or did you start and start somewhere else and meander around, back into it? 


    Chi-Chi: I didn't even know. I didn't think of a creative job as like an option. So as a child, it was like, oh yeah, it's cool. I mean, I'm interested in all these creative things, but I have to. The, in the real world. so was pre-med in college for the first three years and I was like, I guess I'm going to be a doctor, maybe a pediatrician. 


    I like kids, I guess. 


    I know. And then my last year I'm like, you know what? I really don't like this. And I'm in college. I took a lot of. Like I took some costume design classes and like, those are my hobbies and I was always in fashion design clubs and stuff like that. And so I'm like, you know what, maybe I'm going to try fashion. 


    So after college on a whim, I applied to fashion school and that's what got me to New York. And so I studied fashion actually. And I worked in the industry for many years. So that was like my full-time job as a fashion designer. and like I said earlier, I just have a lot of curiosities. I went from, you know, like fashion design and kind of transition, very seamlessly into photography. 


    Friend: Yeah, well, you're amazing. And so then word of mouth just goes like wildfire, I think. 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah. 


    Megan: My husband's like what's Chi-Chi doing, like, I don't know. I'll call her soon. 


    Friend: When can we see her again? 


    Megan: Seriously. I have a question that might be random, but I just wanted to interject with this because I think a lot of people can maybe relate. Were your parents horrified when you chose what you chose? How did you deal with that? 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah, definitely. And I mean, now I understand, like, it's like, you know, you just want something stable for your kids. I'm Nigerian, my parents are Nigerian and. I don't think they really understood the industry. So honestly, when I was like, you know what, I think I'm going to go to move to in New York and go to fashion school. It's like, okay, why, what does this mean? What are you, what are you going to do with that? Like, you know, you could be a nurse if you don't really want to be a doctor, you know, like that's kinda where it was. but then it wasn't till like I started. You know, I got like a job. I started working at Ralph Lauren and it was like, oh, okay. We, we know that name. it makes sense. I mean, I guess there are people who, who work there and design they're like, you know, so, um, yeah, so they just, they they've been on board since. 


    Yeah. 


    Friend: That's cool. Do you think that the work in fashion helped with your eye as a photographer? 


    Chi-Chi: You know what,, I think so, maybe I'm not sure to be honest. I did study, I mean, studying fashion in school was really, really amazing for me just because I was pre-med in college, so all my classes were like science classes, math classes. And I never, even though I took, my costume design class which I loved. Being in school, studying fashion and like even having the stress of schoolwork and homework and like deadlines and stuff, but it was like good stress. You know, it, wasn't the same kind of stress where it's like, oh my gosh, I'm studying this organic chemistry. And I need to, ace this tests. I was like, oh my gosh, I have a deadline to make this collection, but it's really exciting. So I think just kind of like study creative work informed my photography. So just kind of in fashion, you know, we research on a collection, we researched color, we research, you know, patterns and texture and all that stuff. And with photography, I do a lot of research, you know, I research what the location's going to be. 


    Like. I research, you know, the clients their personalities, their mood, try to talk to them a lot to kind of see how you're feeling about the shoot, so it's a lot of research and then putting it all together. It relates in a way. 


    Megan: Yeah, it's a similar skillset, you 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    I just was wondering if you know, if that would inform your photographic style, because I'm new to this. I know I love your images, but I don't know if I have the words to describe it or, or could categorize it. So just wondered if there was something there or if you would explain it in a different way. 


    Chi-Chi: definitely. I would say I do like having an eye for fashion, so I tend to move towards like the editorial side. when I'm photographing, especially with the weddings, I try to bring a little bit of like a fashion editorial spread to the gallery. 


    Friend: Got it. Okay. 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah. 


    Friend: Alright right, let's transition a little bit. I could talk about your fabulous career and skills all day. Oh my goodness. But I am here to talk about your money a little bit, let's ease into it, if we may. The first question is on a scale of one to 10, where would you place yourself in terms of comfort? Talking about finances. 


    Chi-Chi: I would say, so there are two parts. Like the first part would be like what's pricing asking for money. And I would say with that, I'm a good, like eight, nine I'm getting up there. when it comes to like handling my finances and all of that kind of stuff and bookkeeping, and that that's like a whole different level, I'm probably maybe like a four. 


    Friend: Your tone of voice just changed, just dropped. We went dark. 


    Megan: it's so funny. 


    Friend: Love it. Okay, cool, and the grid? 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah, I would say definitely all the way creative and then probably in the, a little bit closer to the splurge or I don't know, I would say either in the middle like maybe one notch on the splurge. 


    Friend: Okay. What's a splurge for you? 


    Chi-Chi: I spend on business things, so like, 


    Friend: You ladies are so practical. 


    All everybody to talk to. Everyone I talked to has been like I splurge for my business. 


    Chi-Chi: splurges are business, and also 


    Friend: That's not a splurge. It's an investment. 


    Chi-Chi: I guess you're right. I guess, I guess I would say food. I love food a lot and I will spend money on food. 


    Megan: Wait, but maybe, maybe we've hit something here because maybe we're using the word splurge when we should using the word investment. 


    Chi-Chi: Hmm. 


    Friend: Or ask both. 


    Megan: Like I'm investing in my business. 


    Friend: maybe we should have just defined it before. Like for me a splurge is like, I'm just throwing my money off out of open window and just for fun, 


    Chi-Chi: Okay. 


    Friend: You know, 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah, it makes sense. It makes sense. So I would say, both, like I splurge on certain things and I save on certain things. So like business aside, like I will splurge on food. I'll just kind of like spend that extra money. I'll add the guac. 


    Megan: The best example. 


    Chi-Chi: I know. All right, I'll get the appetizer and the drink, like I just, I will splurge on. 


    Friend: That's awesome. I love it. Cool. we talked a little bit about the admin work. How much of the finances of your business do you manage and how much do you outsource? 


    Chi-Chi: let's just say I outsource most of it because I do not like doing all that stuff. And I learned, I think I learned the hard way because you know, starting off the businesses kind of want to wear all the hats. So you're like, okay, I guess I have to do everything. I'm the creative, I'm the marketer, I'm the sales person. I'm the bookkeeper. And you know, when you're small, you can kind of get away with that. So I did all of that. I like handle my taxes and then as you grow, you're like, okay, wait a second. You definitely need more help. You know? And outsourcing, definitely saves you time and money. So I am a hundred percent like on and when it comes to outsourcing the finances. 


    Friend: And then do you come back to those vendors or service providers and, say like, so I'm the CEO. do you have questions for me? Do you have challenges for it? Like, do you kind of get them to help you with the management information that comes out of that work? Or is it like hands-off, I don't want to know. File the taxes. 


    Chi-Chi: It's kind of hands off. I don't want to know. It's just kind of, you know, like these are my goals. Here are my books, like file the taxes. me know, you know, like what I need to do, what I need to think about what I need to focus on and then we'll take it from there. 


    Friend: All right. Cool. What about you mentioned pricing a little bit earlier when 


    we were talking about the comfort scale. so it sounds like you're fairly comfortable there. What is your approach to setting prices? 


    Chi-Chi: Really, I just start with the expenses. So on shoots. I usually have an assistant, maybe a second photographer. So just kind of like setting that budget, like what is the pricing going to be? I cover expenses first. And then I think about the time it's going to take me. 


    So from pre production, shoot day a post-production also the outsourcing, like I have a couple of editors that I work with all of that. So I kind of put that all together, along with the timing. And I kind of like have an hourly rate that I give myself and that's how I come up with my pricing. 


    Friend: That seems very logical. 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah. 


    Megan: It's important to remember to factor in all those extras, right? Because your hours answering emails and your hours on the train and your hours of organizing your, gear or whatever, you know, like it's all 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah. 


    Megan: It has to be all accounted for. I used to forget that and now I'm getting better at it. 


    Chi-Chi: it's a lot of time. It's not just the eight hour shoot day, you know, it's also pre shoot or like post you even. I do all sorts of a lot of my editing, but like I still go through every single image and I give a lot of notes and like all of that. So it takes a long time. 


    Friend: Yeah, that's good. You're factoring in so much then I think you're also. Probably more likely to be reasonable, but when you can and can't take on another client, like if you've priced yourself appropriately, you don't need to take all the work. So you can take the work that you need, and then you're busy working on that work and you're being paid for the time behind the scenes. 


    Chi-Chi: Exactly. Definitely. 


    Friend: Has your pricing strategy evolved at all as you? How many years have you been doing this now? 


    Chi-Chi: Oh, this is my seventh year this is my fourth year doing it full time for seven years shooting altogether. And yeah, I would say it's definitely changed since the beginning of. You know, a lot of free work. And I feel like it's a little taboo to say, you know, like I'm a creative and I did free work, but honestly, like I was happy to do it because I just wanted to get out there. 


    I just wanted to shoot. And so, you know, like I was open to, you know, having people give me their budgets and like, I'll take it on. so yeah, that's how it was in the beginning. And then as, my skills improved or demanding improved, to price myself appropriately. it's definitely changed a lot. 


    Friend: Yeah, that's good. What would you say is the next evolution of that? If any, like where do you go from here? So now you're full-time and you've got the work you want and you've got the support you want. it sounds like your pricing is you're comfortable with it. What comes next? 


    Chi-Chi: I mean, I guess the next thing is to me is, keeping more profit with less time. So it was the whole time money thing. So it's, you know, how can I expand my skills? How can I be more efficient? How can I even have a better customer experience, you know? So just kind of like putting all those things together where I can, increase the pricing and also decrease my time. 


    So also a lot more outsourcing and all of that. So I think that's the next step when it comes to the business and how it's going to go. 


    Megan: Your daughter is saying, hi, 


    Chi-Chi: Oh, no, you hear her. 


    Friend: It's all good we love all of our working mothers How old is she now? 


    Chi-Chi: 14 months 


    Friend: my gosh. 


    Megan: My goodness. 


    Friend: All right. it sounds like that's a matter of scaling. 


    Chi-Chi: So honestly it's the whole, the time of money thing. how much time am I spending? really being able to cut that down and how much profit of my keeping. you know, I remember when I first started, like I was shooting a long full day weddings, like basically like almost I have to send out like the whole day I was spending hours and hours and hours editing You know, my rates weren't even what they are now. So I was charging a whole lot less. as I'm growing, I'm loving to see the progression of like, my packages are priced appropriately. I know the amount of time I'm spending. as time goes on, I'm more intentional about how I'm pricing and the time I spend, I really, really make sure that I take count of how much time I'm spending for each project. 


    Friend: That's awesome. 


    Megan: Isn't it nice when you hit that, like sort of just a moment of understanding how much your time is actually worth? our friend here would be mad at me cause I don't have like a great breakdown of it. But for our next meeting, in person in New York, I'm going to bring you like a spreadsheet to show you because Chi-Chi, I recently went out of town I realized how valuable I am in a lot of ways that I wasn't really like putting money towards. Right. And then. Just putting that on paper to plan. I was like, whoa, my time is extremely valuable. You know, just time alone let alone the skill it's wild. 


    Chi-Chi: Definitely. 


    Friend: We're going to do a full episode on pricing strategy and how to consider everything and not just like, well, I guess guess this makes sense per hour. No. think about the whole scope of it. And don't, you know, don't underestimate all the things that go into it. 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah, another big thing in pricing. And you know, I'm thinking a lot of like my wedding photography, but there's other stuff I do, like portraits of stuff. It's just how it's going to be used. how you price a portrait for, someone's website will be different from how you price it for someone's book or an album cover or anything like that. So usage is definitely a big part 


    Friend: That's a good angle. 


    Megan: Yeah, I never thought of that. 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah. 


    Friend: Well, hopefully that was fine. We didn't, I didn't ask you how much you made last year. Right? 


    Everything was fine. 


    Chi-Chi: Yes. 


    Friend: I'll hand over to you, Megan. You're in good hands. 


    Megan: Okay. Chi-Chi let's chat a little bit about art, even though it's like woven into this whole story, but we'll switch. So are you ready? 


    Chi-Chi: Yes. 


    Megan: Okay. I first wanna start with one of the questions I love do you love your job? 


    Chi-Chi: I do I do. I love, I love a lot of aspects. I love the creative part of it. I don't like the admin part of it. I still do like some of the post-production, so I like editing. Um, usually, you know, You images and I'll send this out to my editor was like a lot of notes and then they get it back and I review everything. so I kind of, I liked that part, but I don't like the behind the scenes admin stuff, 


    Megan: I know it's tiring. 


    Chi-Chi: yeah, but I have to say sometimes, I'm at a wedding and I see all the joy and the love and the hugs and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is why I do this. This is awesome. I love it. 


    Megan: All that makes me happy. 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah, 


    Megan: Do you have a favorite artist? 


    Chi-Chi: I can't pick just one or two. I can't say I do. I really love so many genres of art. I love film. I love movies. I love music. When it comes to like music, I really liked John Mayer just cause I think he's an incredible writer. like artists that make you feel and with music and film, I, feel a lot. So, John Mayer, I think is great with film. I love Wes Anderson. I think he's just incredible. And he also informs a lot of my photography. You know, it's just a lot of inspiration, his symmetry, the use of color, the use of light, like she's amazing. 


    Megan: That's so interesting. The film thing I never would have thought of, but that's so aligns with your style of photography. okay. Do you go to or visit museums or do you collect any original art? 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah, it's something I want to be into. I don't do it enough. Like I see all these shows like coming up, I'm like, oh, I'm definitely gonna go. But then life happens and I'm like, dang it. I didn't go. 


    Megan: I mean, you have the perfect tiny excuse currently. So don't stress also toddlers aren't notoriously like the greatest at viewing art. 


    Chi-Chi: Yes. I learned that the hard way. I'm like, oh, I'm going to just take her to the museum. I'm going to do it. And that was like, okay, now I know not to do this anymore. 


    Megan: Yeah. It's like, let's maybe just not do that for awhile. 


    Where do you find inspiration for your work? 


    Chi-Chi: have to say, movies like film. So when I watch movies, I don't just watch for the story. I watch it for the lighting. I watched it for the cinematography. I even watch it for like what I call blocking, how the characters are posed around each other, even though it's, you know, it's a moving image, just kind of like, okay, it's a couple and they're in love. 


    And like how they're standing, they're not posed specifically, but just the blocking. And I like, I love watching movies and just kind of even group shots, like, oh, how are you? How's the family together. Like how are they positioned? And that really informs how I shoot. Like when I go out to, you know, maybe shoot a wedding or to shoot anything, even maybe portraits, I'm just like, okay. 


    I like keep in mind all the movies and film I've watched. And I get a lot of inspiration from that. 


    Friend: I think we just cracked, what makes Chichi the best at what she does? 


    Megan: So seriously, I'm like picturing photos she's taken of me and I'm like, I've never felt awkward in any photo 


    Friend: Yeah, 


    Megan: like a perfect understanding. 


    I even just like good angles. It's not about that. It's like capturing a good moment. 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah. Like, I like it to be realistic. Like I want it to look like real life, you know, I'm really, I'm really big on that. And that's why I love watching movies. And I'm like, you know, these are actors portraying real life. Like, how are they standing? how do they look? You know, it's very different for them. This is a photo and we have to stand like this and we have to smile like this, you know? 


    Megan: And for the people who are awkward in this room, meaning I'm the host of this podcast. It is hard to look like a normal person in a photo. If you're either shy or weird or a enormous person. 


    Friend: have been used to know, you know, what happened at work? The other day, I went into the office for the first time. In two years we had a pizza party and it was like, excrutiatingly awkward because they wanted to take our picture and no one wanted to stand beside me because I was so tall, like in grade seven. And so when you come into it with that, you need to Chichi 


    Megan: Yeah, you do. You need someone to be like everyone stopped acting weird. 


    Friend: So Chichi, if you are watching any movies and there are awkwardly tall characters and you have any tips for us 


    Megan: tough. 


    Friend: where to stand. That's cool though, that you're, you're studying, you're watching and you're studying the placement of people. I've never thought of that. 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah. Yeah. It's fun. I love it. Yeah. 


    Megan: That's wild. Okay. If you could have a dinner party with four other creative people, dead or alive, who would you invite? 


    Chi-Chi: Oh, well, my four people would be, so Maria Abramovic, uh, she is a performance artist. I really like her. Like I said, I love, you know, I love the art makes you feel, and these are people that just like really make me feel. And she's just so deep in her thinking and her performance. So she's number one. Number two would be Daniel Kaluuya is an actor. He did Get Out. He's incredible. He's literally my number one right now. He's just so amazing. Like he really brings you into the character and just makes you feel what they're feeling, what they're imagining. So, I would definitely have him there. 


    I would have Patricia Fields, so, you know, from my fashion world, she's the costume designer behind Sex in the City. And I just think she's brilliant. Like you're looking at those cosutmes. Like how, like how did you even think about that? So, that would be my fashion person. And then, Greg Williams, he's a photographer. shoots a lot of celebrities, a lot of like Oscar parties and stuff like that. But his candid photos are incredible. you feel the emotion, you feel that energy and every single photo. And I think he's amazing. 


    Megan: You forgot to mention one very important dinner guest. You saw him recently while shooting a wedding. 


    Chi-Chi: Oh, George Clooney. 


    Megan: She saw George Clooney. 


    Chi-Chi: Yes It was, amazing. So I'm shooting. I was doing family portraits and you know, a bunch of people started like gathering on the side and they were like, say stuff and like, and then the family was like, oh my gosh. And I couldn't hear who it was. And I'm like, you know what, let me just go. Let me like, shoot. So I went and I started snapping. I was like, George Clooney. 


    Megan: Did you get to talk to him? 


    Chi-Chi: No, he moved, really fast. I think he actually talked to grandmother of the family. I was shooting. I think he said a word or two to her, but he moved pretty fast, but yeah, I got a photo and I was like, oh my gosh. 


    Megan: The grandma's like fanning herself in the corner, like, oh, just like overcome. 


    Friend: So once I saw Hugh Grant, I could never appreciate him again because I saw him in person. He was old and fat. Was George Clooney like that? Or is he really that beautiful? 


    Chi-Chi: He really is that dreamy. He's just like he is on TV. I think the rest of the day I was like, my energy was up there. I was like, oh my gosh, we saw George Clooney. 


    Megan: He seems kind of magical, like not to be dorky about it, but like he has like a twinkle in his eyes. He's like a effervescent 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah, he was really nice. I mean, I just saw him kind of like walk in with his wife and of course, like his people by his side, but he was just very, very charming, you know, I think he likes, smiled at people. He weighed a little bit and just walks right on by, but it was awesome. 


    I think it was my favorite, like celebrity sighting so far. 


    Friend: Um, did you just say that you saw George Clooney and his wife? Is she as beautiful 


    Chi-Chi: She is, they are really good looking just like you see them on TV. I was, I was impressed. 


    Friend: What do you think they were doing? 


    Chi-Chi: I have no clue. I was wondering, I mean, it was just them and. A few of their people and they just walked right in and yeah, they were there for some time. Maybe some kind of meeting, I guess. 


    Friend: At the library, like the one on fifth and 42nd? 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah. 


    Megan: Like we're Carrie and Big, got married. 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah. And it was open. I mean, the library stayed open, so people were coming in and out, so I'm sure they, you know, have some kind of meeting in a private room. 


    Friend: Maybe she needed to do some research. 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah. 


    Megan: Anyway started to poach your dinner party. But I was like, I have to weave that into conversation. I'll just bring George we'll come to the party also. Ah, sigh. Okay. We're going to do a little rapid fire right now, but some people are more rapid than others. We'll see how this goes. Are you ready? 


    Okay. Dogs or cats? 


    Chi-Chi: Dogs. 


    Megan: Do you have a dog? 


    Chi-Chi: I don't have pets, but I like the little ones you can hold in your hand. Only the ?Small ones. I'm a little scared of the bigger ones, unless they were like really, really friendly 


    Megan: Yeah, I get that. It's kind of intense. Okay. A City Hall elopement, or a destination wedding? 


    Chi-Chi: Destination wedding. 


    Yeah. 


    Friend: For you or to shoot? 


    Chi-Chi: Oh, to shoot for me, City Hall. 


    Megan: That's funny. 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah. 


    Megan: What's the best destination wedding you've ever been to 


    Chi-Chi: I just did one in Costa Rica early this year. It was beautiful. Great weather, great space. I loved it. 


    Megan: That's cool. It sounds amazing. I'll go also. okay. Tik Tok or, Instagram? 


    Chi-Chi: Instagram. I'm not that hip with social media. And as the new ones come, I'm just like, oh gosh, I'm starting to feel old. 


    Megan: We haven't had a single person say to talk yet. Like it's not, we're not of the right, age demographic for that. Tea or coffee? 


    Really. 


    Friend: What kind of tea? 


    Chi-Chi: So I don't drink coffee at all. My husband loves tea. So he has a lot of different types. He like always gets different blends every time he travel, he goes for the teas. And so he has a lot, I'm not really like a big tea person, but since he has so many, like, he'll just make me a blend every now and then. 


    Friend: Oh, nice. 


    Megan: lovely. Okay. Film or digital? 


    Chi-Chi: Digital. 


    Megan: Do you ever shoot film? 


    Chi-Chi: I don't shoot film, but I, do want to start. I just love the look of it. It's beautiful. So I wanna just start dabbling in it a little bit. 


    Megan: It feels riskier to me though. 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah. But it also feels more intentional. Like you have to really make sure, like, you're getting the shot. You can't just snap, snap, snap, you know? 


    Megan: I don't think you would have trouble with that part of it. I don't. I truly don't, but I, I get why digital is used more often. It just seems like more forgiving maybe. 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah, 


    Megan: Paper or eBooks? 


    Chi-Chi: EBooks all the way, 


    Megan: gasp. 


    Chi-Chi: All the way. I know everyone likes like paper books, but I love eBooks. Like you could take it anywhere. You could have a hundred books and you could take it anywhere. 


    You could read three books at a time. 


    Friend: What do you read on? 


    Chi-Chi: The Kindle. 


    Megan: I've always wanted to convert, but I'm like, I need to touch the book. It's a weird thing. 


    Chi-Chi: I know. Yeah. I mean, if it's a book I really, really love for me to like, get the hard cover, but I'm fine with the the ebook. 


    Megan: She's like, let me make my choices. Okay. What was your worst subject in school growing up? 


    Chi-Chi: um, 


    Megan: She didn't have one. 


    Friend: one. 


    Megan: I 


    Chi-Chi: Well, 


    Megan: was a straight, a 


    Friend: was 


    Chi-Chi: no, no, no, no. I guess I'll say chemistry. 


    Megan: Fair, 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah. 


    Who likes chemistry? 


    Friend: How much of that did you have to take in pre-med? 


    Chi-Chi: My first year I took general chemistry and then labs. Oh, I hated the labs. I hated those. So I took two years. Two years of chemistry, regular chemistry, then organic chemistry, and then the labs for both years. 


    Megan: Wow. I'm speechless, which is unusual. 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah. just I'm glad those days are over. 


    Friend: Me too. 


    Megan: Yeah, it's tough to do something. You're not sure about. What was your favorite book as a little kid? 


    Chi-Chi: Favorite book? I liked Shel Silverstein. 


    Megan: Oh, we 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah. And that's another set of books Sweet Valley High was really nice. 


    Megan: I love series, you know? Cause you wanted to know the story. It kind of goes with your, your whole thing of needing a long story to follow. It makes sense. Okay, favorite place to travel? 


    Chi-Chi: Internationally or, 


    Megan: Internationally. 


    Chi-Chi: Okay. I guess to be honest, I love my husband makes fun of me cause I just, I love Mexico and anytime he's like, let's go on a trip. I'm like, let's go to Mexico. And he's like, there are other places in the world. 


    Megan: But it's so easy. 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah, It's beautiful. So those are, that's my favorite place that I've been, definitely have a whole list of places I want to go to. 


    Megan: I know such wanderlust. okay. The last question we already answered, so I can't ask you, but I'll add one more. Favorite person on this podcast? 


    Friend: And what is her name? 


    Megan: She's anonymous. 


    Friend: Please state her name. 


    Megan: Oh my gosh. All I want to do is have you come visit so we can do another photo day. 


    Friend: I've been trying to think of ways where Megan and I can get some photos for the podcast without showing my face. 


    Megan: I know. That's the tricky part. 


    Friend: If you have any ideas, 


    Megan: That'd be a fun project. 


    Chi-Chi: You might have to like, hold something front, like maybe like a book or something. 


    Megan: We could do like us laughing in a cafe, but like something in her, in your face. 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah, 


    Megan: Anyways. Well, we love you and we're so thankful for you taking the time to be with us. 


    Chi-Chi: Thank you for having me. 


    Megan: It's hard to carve out, so we really appreciate your time. 


    Chi-Chi: Thanks for having me. This was so fun. So nice chatting with you two. 


    Megan: that's super important though, is where can people find you on the internet? 


    Chi-Chi: Oh yes. So my Instagram is Chichi, Ari Love. That's the one I update the most and online is chichiarilove.com 


    Megan: So good. I like just was on your website, just doing a quick stock the other day. Like, oh my God. It's still so good. 


    Chi-Chi: Thank you. 


    Megan: Then we have one last question for you. The former teacher in me really likes to ask, do you have a question or a suggestion or a homework assignment for our list? So we'd like to challenge them to work on something sort of related to the guest or related to that week's topic. What would you recommend that people work on? 


    Chi-Chi: Yeah. So homework wise is to almost the art in things you wouldn't first think about as art. So like watching a movie like that is art. So look for all the artistic expression in the movie, look at the costumes, look at the blocking, the placement of people. Look at the lighting and its belief. Focus on all the expressions of art in that movie. 


    Megan: I love that. 


    Friend: Any particular movie or can I just choose my own? 


    Chi-Chi: Gosh, there's so many. One that's coming to my mind right now is Queen and Slim. That's probably one of my favorite movies. It's amazing. You should definitely check it out. 


    There's also a movie called The Lobster. it's a Collin Farrel. really, really love it. It's kind of like hit or miss some people hate it, some people love it and I love it. 


    Megan: It's like super quirky. Right? 


    Chi-Chi: Yes. It's very quirky. And I love movies that are a little bit like off the beaten path and just kind of different, movies that make you think movies that make you feel so. Yeah, 


    Megan: That's great. We can do this homework. We can handle this. 


    Friend: I want to watch them both. That sound awesome. 


    Megan: again. We love you. And this was super fun. 


    Chi-Chi: Yes, this is awesome. Thank you for having me. 


    Friend: Thank you for being here. That was awesome. 


    Woo. That was good. I'm so glad we finally got Chi-Chi on the schedule. We had to work for that one a little bit, but it was worth the wait. 


    Megan: She's the best truly magical. A magical person, also her photos, I wish, I mean, we'll share them in the show notes, some of the examples of her work, but she captured me, which we mentioned awkward and my family in such a natural, calm, happy way, which is heroic. You know, it's like not easy. 


    Friend: Yeah. You guys look like angels. 


    Megan: Angels sent from 


    Friend: Yeah, exactly. Models, model angels. 


    Megan: Well, that. 


    Friend: Yeah, I thought that was really cool, how we ended up going into pricing strategy with her. I don't know if that was particularly in the show notes or the plan, but it was perfect timing. We already had planned for the next episode to be around pricing. And that was based on some questions that we got from a listener. And so I think it's, perfect, we're gonna draw a little bit more from what she has shared with us and I'm really looking forward to that. I think it's, we're just going into pricing season, so get ready. 


    Megan: I like how she mentioned her time being so valuable. I think that's like a huge turning point for women in business. Once, you know, your time is valuable. That's when you know how to price yourself better. 


    Friend: Yeah. And then I think it gives you freedom to say no and be okay with saying no and not just take every job and run yourself ragged. 


    Megan: Right. 


    Friend: Yeah. Awesome. 


    Megan: She's the best. Thank you again, Chichi. 


    Friend: Yeah. All right. And next week, stay tuned for Pricing 1 0 1 or whatever we decide to call it. 


    Megan: It's going to be a doozy. 


    Friend: As always, for listening to The Arts. 


    Megan: This is Megan of Art by Megan. 


    Friend: And her friend, your patron of the arts. 


    Megan: Wishing you more art. 


    Friend: And maybe, a better understanding of your money. Bye. 


Third and Fourth
Episode 010 - Guest Interview: Marie the Mentor

Friend interviews her long-term mentor about how to find the right career, the many ways one can be philanthropic, painting upside down, and how to raise financially literate and independent young women.

Listen, follow and review us on your go-to podcast directory: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | Google Podcasts

Show Notes

  • Guest: Marie has requested to remain anonymous.

    Range book

    Upcoming Shows in and around DC:

    The Picasso show runs until June 12 2022

    The Yayoi Kusama show runs until November 27th 2022

    Joan Mitchell show runs until August 14th 2022

    Megan will share Friend’s first painting on her IG stories.

    Homework:

    Do math puzzles and play the piano.

    Rate, follow, like, or share The Art$ with a friend.

    We would love to hear from you! Email us your questions and ideas at podcast at artbymegan dot com

  • Friend: And get all your wiggle out. 


    Megan: Megan is going to touch everything on the table. Then we're going to start. 


    Friend: All right. Ready? 


    Welcome to The Arts, a brand new podcast about art and money. I've spent my career managing at some of the world's largest financial institutions. So I can't tell you my name, but trust me, talking about money is my jam. 


    Megan: And I'm Megan, I'm an artist and a teacher. And now co-host of this amazing podcast. We're having this conversation because we came to a realization. We have no idea how the other person spends her workday. 


    Friend: Or her money. So let's chat about it. 


    Megan: On today's show, we Are delighted to introduce you to a very special guest and influencer, but not in the sense that we've gotten used to as elder millennials. 


    Friend: Are we elder millennials? We're like on the cusp. 


    Megan: There's a whole episode about this. I mean, she's a truly wise and wonderful woman of lasting and significant influence in her own community and beyond. 


    Friend: Yes, our guest today is very special to me. And I'm so thrilled that you agreed to speak with us because I found her to be a font of wisdom and encouragement in my life for almost two decades. And I wanted more women to be able to hear from her and learn from her. 


    Megan: Okay. So while we're preparing for this, I had to read through the bio that you basically write for me in our show notes here, 


    Friend: You're welcome. 


    Megan: like, literally my life coach is on the line. Uh, do I have this correct? That she was it former teacher, a current writer, a real estate developer, a painter, a historian, a public speaker, published author and philanthropist. 


    Friend: Yes, that is all one person 


    Megan: Okay. 


    Friend: and so she's all of those things. Plus she cooks like a Michelin starred chef, like get an invitation for dinner. 


    Megan: I'm on it. 


    Friend: And, and she knits and crochets. Um, she makes gifts for everyone's babies and she collects art. 


    Megan: Oh, that's the golden ticket. 


    Friend: I know, it's like the only way you have the ability to fit that much in it is to be older than us. Like it's like goals. I mean, I don't know anybody our age who has that kind of 


    Megan: Range. 


    Friend: breadth. Exactly, range. I like that side note Range is a fantastic. 


    Megan: Oh, I know. 


    Friend: All right. So we're only going to refer to today's guests by her name, her first name, Marie. 


    Um, we're not going to share too many other specifics about where she lives and so on, at her request, she has just a general disinterest in much public, credit. And, we will respect that. 


    Megan: That's cool. I mean, I think we can honor people's desire to maintain some level of privacy in this world, especially when they're coming to speak with us about their finances, you know, I mean, it's still like, it's a topic that isn't always public. I mean, we can learn a lot from people from their own experience and their wisdom, but doesn't have to be like full, publicity. And it actually might help some more people join us in the conversation. So this is good. 


    Friend: Yeah. It allowed them to be more open in some cases. Yeah. I would rather have an anonymous, but honest conversation than no conversation at all. And I think you'll find that, you know, she's very open. 


    Megan: Yes. People aren't as open as us sometimes. 


    Friend: And also, uh, your cohost. 


    Megan: Well, you're 


    Friend: your, cohost. So like it's only fair. 


    Megan: Right? Yeah. 


    Friend: can do the same. 


    Megan: Totally. All right. Well, let's do this, but first The Scene. 


    Friend: The Scene. All right, you go ahead. I'd like to know what's happening in, all things cool this week. And then I have a surprise for you. 


    Megan: You know, I love to report on all things. Cool. I actually have like a scroll of upcoming, shows that I want to see that are coming to my neck of the woods. 


    Friend: I think for this one, we need to show that little video clip because Megan just did like a very like Moses-esque S.. 


    Megan: Yeah. It's like the dead sea scrolls. That's how my brain works. Like in actual scrolls of information. 


    Friend: I love the animation on that one. 


    Megan: I am. I'm an animated, I'm like a GIF or Jif, whatever. okay. So, uh, Picasso shows coming to DC and like never heard of that coming to DC. So that's exciting. Yeah. And. Yayoi Kusama, you know, the infinity mirrors, the Japanese artists with all the polka dots. 


    You've seen her polka dot paintings 


    Friend: I don't think so. I don't think I know. 


    Megan: So that's coming to DC and there's a Joan Mitchell show coming to Baltimore, Maryland, which is like an hour north of me, but worth the trip because John Mitchell is like one of my favorite abstract expressionists. You also might know her work, even though you're not remembering it in your brain right now, 


    Friend: No, I'm just thinking about Joni Mitchell. 


    Megan: Yes, which is a problem for her. It's like bad PR. They may have been friends. 


    But anyway, there's a lot of art to see. So I need to, um, go in public. 


    Friend: Okay. We'll share the dates and seriously, I would love to come in. I love the art scene in DC. I think it's fantastic. 


    Megan: It's kind of underrated in a nice way and it's free a lot of times, which is really surprising. So there's that. 


    Friend: Cool. Okay. I've been so excited, but I've been waiting for weeks to do this. so when, when I told Marie that we were doing this podcast, I was telling her about it. And, you know, we'd love to have her as a guest. She decided that at a minimum, I needed to learn to paint something. 


    So she has over the course of a few weeks, more complicated by the fact that, we're in different countries. So when I'm near her, we do a lesson. And she's given me three sessions where we paint in the afternoon together. 


    And I wanted to show you, I finally finished the painting that, we've been working on. And I do not know how to describe it. I don't, I don't know, like the type of painting, I'm not sure. So I sent her a picture of the top of a mountain in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, and she printed it out and helped me to put it onto canvas. 


    Megan: Oh, that's very cool. 


    Friend: to like, get your live reaction to 


    Megan: I'm going to like, I'm taking a picture of my live reaction. 


    OMG! 


    Whaaa.. 


    Okay guys, I know you can't see this because it's a podcast and that's like, you know, the fatal flaw of podcasts is you can't see it, but it's a perfect rendering of ski village. Is that like the ski hut? 


    Friend: It's the waffle house 


    Megan: my 


    Friend: of me and it's like skis leaned up. 


    Megan: Those mountains look legit. And the sky. That must've taken a lot of, time. 


    Friend: It was three three hour sessions. 


    Megan: I mean, the fact that you could accomplish that in that little time actually is pretty shocking. How do you feel about monochrome it's black and white? Mostly. 


    Friend: it's 


    Megan: And with grey? 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    It turns out I like painting with white. 


    Megan: What? Okay, so there's like a whole thing about that. The color I most often use is white because it's almost like, um, it's a blending tool. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: Always just plain old, white paint on the canvas. You know, you put the pigment down and then you use the white to move the colors around, but it's a very forgiving. Did you like it or was it too scary to paint? 


    Friend: I had so much fun. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: I loved it. I didn't have much anxiety or stress about it. Yeah. I just like started it just like went for it. I mean, she was there with me. Right. she was painting her thing and I was doing mine. And so she just taught me each little piece of it as we went along and I loved it. 


    So I've been doing like restorative yoga for years as a practice. And I, that helps me manage stress and the chaos of these large cities in the crazy work. I found that this was an even better vacation from my mind. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: I was so, in awe of how preoccupied my mind was from any other thing during that time, it was very relaxing. 


    Megan: It's shockingly relaxing. Like if you can really let it go, but it takes a little time. I'm surprised you weren't anxious at all. Not because you're an anxious person, but just because like, when I teach classes, the number one complaint is people have a hard time letting it go. 


    Friend: time for that. 


    Megan: She's also probably a really good teacher and a calming older lady force. Oh, my gosh. That's really precious. What a great exchange. 


    Friend: It was really like gold dust. The only final thing I would say is that after I left the painting room, and I went back out into the world, I felt like I had new eyes. 


    I felt like I was noticing color and she lives in the, country. So like trees look different to me, the sunset, I was like, oh, I could paint that. I could paint that. Not that I all the sudden I'm an expert, but. 


    Megan: No, but it's like, you can appreciate what you learned, which is literally the whole point of anything. 


    Friend: Yeah. It was really cool. 


    Megan: That's So, cool. I'm very happy for you. I love the idea of, um, tapping into. Wiser older people in society and like listening to them and slowing down and doing something with them that you didn't normally think that you would do together. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: Like that alone is quite powerful. 


    Friend: Yeah, it was special. So, so that, so that's, what's happening in The Scene. I guess what I would say to listeners is like, don't be afraid of a blank canvas and just do something, just like take an online class. find someone who knows and who's willing to teach you and like lend, I didn't have any supplies or anything. Right. I mean, I live in a New York City apartment. There's not room for like, all the hobbies. So I used her supplies 


    Megan: That's cool. 


    Friend: you know, yeah. So I guess 


    I would say, just try it. 


    Megan: I'm not great at that. I'll fully admit, like, I'm good at doing the things I like doing, but it's harder for me to try something completely new. Like if I were to be like, I'm going to go try and woodworking ticket today, that would be that's nerve wracking to me a little 


    Friend: Hmm. 


    Megan: I'll do it, but I just have to like, try 


    Friend: Also like what's the cost of playing around with woodworking when you could be doing 14 other things. 


    Megan: This is why you have to hang out with people that aren't your own age. If you gives you fun perspective. 


    Friend: Yeah, I think that's great. 


    Megan: Anyways, let's go. 


    Friend: Alright. So let's get to the interview. 


    The Main Exhibit. 


    Ok, we are here with Marie today and she's been a long-term friend and mentor of mine, and so excited to get to sit down with her and ask her some burning questions. Thank you for agreeing. Thank you for being here. 


    Marie: My pleasure. 


    Friend: Would you like to give us a little bit of background about yourself, your career and what you're doing today? 


    Marie: Certainly I guess I just had a normal childhood with great parents, but they never encouraged to do anything great they just supported me and whatever choices I made. So when I was in high school and I played sports that's was my big thing, playing sports, and I decided to go into university so I could play varsity sports there. 


    At that time, the only choices for women were secretarial school, become a nurse or a teacher or get married and I thought, okay, I'll got my degree and I'll be a teacher. Then I did that. I was 20 years teaching really enjoyed it. My last few years were teaching gifted girls which was perfect because I got to mentor and encourage them in their studies and their future paths. 


    They were 16, 18. Okay. And I retired early out of that then I went into restoring old houses. Because I have a passion for things that are old. And I just wanted to do that. My husband and I bought a house out in the country that was built in 1858 and we restarted the whole thing. 


    Let's build another addition onto it, So that took up a few years. Then we did a few more houses together after that I was into photography. I had my own dark room and developed my own pictures. 


    And that morphed into, I decided to write a book about the history of all the houses in the community that I live in. So there were 376 houses built before 1920. And I wanted to look at when they were built and who lived in them all these years and what those people did as much information as I could find. 


    So I spent eight years researching. And the last two years have been writing it. And I'm now at the point where I'm almost done I'm on the last edit. It's three volumes and well over 1200 pages. 


    Friend: Wow. 


    Marie: In the meantime, there's an old hotel in the town and it was one of the subjects of my book. I went through the old hotel for the history of it, and I came out of it thinking this would be perfect for seniors residents, because there were so many seniors in my town who sold their houses and they had no place to go. There were no nice apartments. So I bought it, I bought it. I bought an old hotel. 


    I told him what I was going to do, that I was going to restore it so that it would be livable for seniors and make it just exquisite for them. And then on the main floor put in businesses that used to be in the town many years ago, like a brewery, a bakery, a really nice restaurant. So He said, yeah, you go ahead do it. 


    So I, I figured it out. I worked with the construction people. I learned about construction kind of one step ahead of everything that was going on. And it wasn't impossible. It was fun. Probably one of the most enjoyable projects I've ever done. And then it was done and it was like, now what? I'm still taking care of it, but the building I missed. 


    So I recently just bought an old house that has to be torn down and I'm working on getting it demolished and I'm going to build another house, my retirement house for us. 


    Friend: What do you do in your spare time then when you're not renovating and rebuilding and restoring and writing 


    Marie: and writing. And recently I've gotten back into painting because of you, I love painting. 


    I just find it invigorating clears my head. What else do I do? I have three dogs. So I take them for walks. I have a needy husband, so I have to take care of him 21 grandchildren. And so I spend time when I can, outside of COVID doing things with them. Yeah. 


    Friend: And we may hear some dogs. The dogs may want to join the podcast a little bit here, which is fine. They're welcome. They're very sweet. 


    So that's a. That's a lot that, so painter, historian, writer, developer, restore of all things old. 


    Marie: Yes. Yeah. 


    Friend: Wow. And how long did you say it's been since you left teaching? Or how long were you in teaching? 


    Marie: 20 and 20 years. So that was 96, when I left teaching. 


    Friend: So you've had more years not teaching them teaching, 


    Marie: but people would often say, don't you miss it? No. 


    Friend: All right. Well thank you for for sharing and hopefully our listeners are starting to get a picture of what an amazing woman you are. It's been my, my pleasure and privilege to have you in my life for so many years. have a few questions for you. And you can answer them or not answer them. It's totally up to you. 


    Marie: Okay. 


    Friend: Did you get a chance to have a look at the the scale of like how comfortable you are talking about money So it's, it's like from one to 10, where would you place yourself on that comfort scale? 


    Marie: Say about seven. Eight. Okay. 


    Friend: All right. What, what would keep you away from the top end of the scale? I think where's your discomfort. 


    Marie: Because those are the unknowns where I have some money invested that I can't remember where it is right now. 


    Friend: You are not that old. 


    Marie: I don't always pay attention to those little details. I'm married to a wonderful man who takes care of those details I used to, but now I let him do it so I can do other stuff. 


    Friend: Okay. That's fair. And you know, I don't know if I would describe you as. I think you're a very busy what does a typical day or week look like for you or any days the same? 


    Marie: No. never. 


    Friend: So what do you do all day? 


    Marie: Well, Lately it's just been researching writing, but for example, I was helping out an organization with their showcases. I was fixing them up for them. So I just finished that. And I write off and on for our local newspaper, not so much lately since I've been finishing up the book, but they called me Friday and asked me to write an article for tomorrow. So I've got tomorrow only to write this article. So that is kind of ongoing writing articles and people will call me with questions on history. 


    So research things for them. And then there's, you know, the daily stuff of making meals. I love to cook and I love to make kind of exotic meals or just perfect meals, but I don't spare any time. will say, why are you spending so much time on these meals? And I say, because it's an art, 


    Friend: It is an art that's right. You also, in addition to many, many other things inspired my ability to cook. So thank you for that. It's not just function. It can also be form. Can also be new, a real adventure, real, real expression. Next question for you. What has been one of the biggest failures in, your life or career? 


    Marie: Well, sadly it would be spending so much time in teaching. Although I liked it, I think I stayed in it because it was safe and it was a guaranteed income. And I wasn't allowing myself to try other things. And that's what I really regret because I think I could have done even more in my life. 


    Friend: So that the time, time invested in it, not doing other things. 


    Yeah. Interesting. Did you know Megan also left teaching? No, no. Yes. She was in so a little bit of similarity. 


    Marie: I encouraged people who are in that same boat now to get out. 


    Friend: Yes. Yes. And I don't know if you remember, but when. Back when I was deciding between business school or teachers college. Do you remember what you said? 


    Marie: I said, don't go into teaching. 


    Friend: And I listened to you and you were right. 


    Okay. What is something, you know, on the flip side of failure is success. What is something that you're really proud of that you'd like to share with us? 


    Marie: Definitely be the old hotel that I rescued and did all that work on it? I, you know, I had, I had some background in building with restoration of houses, but not with a big commercial building that I was rebuilding. 


    I had to got up first and rebuild. It took two years and a lot of money and gray hair and lots of things like that, but it was wonderful working with the architect and the builder. And I have meetings every week with my onsite supervisor just to make sure I knew what was happening. see, it progressed from the shell to apartments and then picking out all the finishing details for the apartments was so much fun. Um, yeah. 


    Friend: How big is it? How many rooms are units? 


    Marie: There are 12 apartments. Self-sufficient with their own washer and dryers, and they have their own heating and air conditioning in each one too. 


    Friend: And kitchens. 


    Marie: And kitchens state-of-the-art of everything. And I made sure the ceilings were high and they all had beautiful crystal chandelier's. 


    I designed it as if, my parents were still alive. This is what I would have built for them so that they would have appreciated that. 


    Friend: So that's so nice and so opposite from many of the places you could live in your later years. 


    Marie: So I always have a waiting list of 21 people. Wow. And soon as a name goes off, A couple more go back on I never thought that I could do anything like that, but if you just take it day by day, and if I had questions, I asked them and I learned, and I'm looking forward to doing it again. 


    Friend: You would do it again? 


    Marie: Oh yeah. 


    Friend: Was it also it sounds like it was a success for the community, for you, for the, residents. Was it also a financial success or did it not go the way you would've planned? 


    Marie: Well, that way people ask me that I'll say, ah, no, I still haven't broken even yet. Okay. But I didn't spare any expenses because my husband said if you're going to do it, do it right. And make it beautiful. So I did and went through all my money and then put my hand into my husband's pockets and took as much out as I could. 


    And then when I got a bank loan, Yeah. 


    Friend: But, but it was the right thing to do. And it's beautiful. 


    Marie: It's my people that live there just love it there. The community loves it and it really restored the downtown area. And other people started fixing their buildings to. It is beautiful. It's a beautiful project. 


    Friend: Can I go on the wait list? 


    Marie: 30 years, 


    Friend: Hopefully it doesn't take that long by the waitlist, but all right. 


    Marie: Um, 


    Friend: Next question. What do you think? I might know the answer to this. We've maybe touched on it, but what, what kind of investments do you like to make or what do you love to invest in and why? 


    Marie: I think that the safest investment is land and buildings. Buildings rarely go down in their value, especially around here. 


    The last two years buildings increased tremendously. 


    Friend: Is that because around here, just for the listeners is it's rural, not in a big city. Do you think people just are looking for space or what do you think is driving that? 


    Marie: I don't know. What's been driving up this, but I know that a lot of people from the big city close by, they decided they don't want to live there anymore so they're coming to the smaller communities, perhaps they're the ones who are driving up the price, but it's good for people who are selling. And that's good for my portfolio. 


    Friend: At least on paper until yes. 


    All right. I have a couple of more finance oriented questions for you. 


    Marie: Okay. 


    Friend: And one of the things, as you know, we're trying to do with the podcast is find a way to organically help improve financial literacy among women, my age and near to my age. 


    And when I think about you, I think now that is a woman who has a good sense for how to manage your own assets and teach others to do the same. And so I was wondering, where did that come from? Who influenced your financial literacy and independence? 


    Marie: Good question, I don't think I grew up knowing that it's probably once I was on my own and influencing young girls that I thought it's important for them to realize that they could be the sole provider in their life. So they have to make sure they get a good education, good job, invest their money wisely and just do all those things themselves. 


    Don't expect someone else to do for them. And I tried to impress upon my own three daughters. And now my granddaughters, I said, just do as much as you can for yourself and you'll grow. 


    Friend: So it wasn't that wasn't something that came from your family or from your schooling as much as just observing the women, young women around you 


    Marie: Did I have any mentors? I think once I started working, I would meet women who weren't in education and I would look at what they were doing and I learned from them for sure. 


    Friend: I don't think a lot of people will have that kind of influence in their life, which is one of the reasons I wanted us to talk to you is to get that perspective. And certainly for me you know, you, did give me a lot of direction in this way. Do you remember how you influenced my financial independence and some of my decisions and was that intentional? 


    Marie: Oh, for sure. Yes. I would definitely try to give you advice and lead you in the right direction for success because I remember that time, you underestimated your skills and you were going to just settle And I knew you were very bright and had all these assets, your personality, and you could do anything. And that's why I encouraged you to go big. Try out for things. 


    Friend: Yeah. I remember one of the, one of the first things that really stuck with me in this area or on this topic was. We were talking about banking and credit cards. And you said you get your own credit card, do you remember? 


    Marie: Yeah. 


    Friend: It was like the first thing, and I don't think I had even thought about that yet. 


    I was like, who needs a credit card? And that, At the time, you know, married young then just would've thought like, well, he has one, so it'll be fine. And you were just adamant that that was not, you know, that was not enough. It was not sufficient for me to just coast along. 


    Marie: You needed your own credit card, your own bank account. You had your driver's license, but I come across young people now who don't have the driver's license and I say, get your driver's license. 


    Friend: So you can drive yourself away. If I need to . 


    Always put $20 in your wallet, just in case you need it. 


    It's good advice. Good advice. And it's even to this day, it's something that I think, wow, that was forward looking. You know, when I move into a new country and I've moved into several countries, credit history and establishing, you know, that on my own is, has been so, so important for just stability and being able to buy things and, you know, it's good advice. 


    Um, the last question around sort of the finances and money that I have for you. I wondered if you could share with us: you know, finances and financial health and wellbeing is not just around earning and investing. I think personally, it's also around giving and I've seen that from you. And I was wondering if you could share you know, what is the role of giving and your philanthropic efforts? And has it changed over time 


    Marie: Well, as I become more financially stable and have more money, I'd like to give it away to not just research like for cancer or Ms, but for small organizations need a little help or people who've suffered a loss and there's a GoFundMe project on I'll put money into that. 


    Or even just waitresses. We always tip large because I remember when I was a waitress and I would get a dollar tip, which was big in 1970. So I try to help them out as much as I can. We've helped kids with their education paying for that. 


    Friend: And that's a big help. That's a big start. 


    Marie: Yes. And it's such a worthy thing. 


    We don't ever want to be re be repaid for that. We just want to give. encourage people to be their best. And it's very gratifying for us to later hear how well they've done with their lives because they had that little start. 


    Friend: So that sounds like a conscious decision. Like you have enough, so you will also give. 


    Marie: And not all people can do that, but another thing people can do is give their time when I do a lot of volunteering too, as much as I can for the community that I find very gratifying and I don't need to be thanked for that. It's just my way of giving back. 


    Friend: And didn't you do I have this right? during COVID you dressed up in costumes and anonymously delivered meals and supplies and so on to people. 


    Marie: It's a local restaurant, just a small restaurant and I'm friends with the owner and soon as COVID hit, you know, she couldn't have people in anymore, so she thought she'd deliver food, but she couldn't deliver herself because she was cooking. So I had costumes, I'd put a costume on and I'd go deliver her luncheon orders. 


    And people would just find it very funny. I liked doing that because I like making people laugh, especially during stressful times. And I bought probably another 15 costumes, just so I would have a variety of things to wear. And then. Lunches for my tenants in my apartment building. And once a week I would take over something that I made for them for lunch. 


    And that kind of went into dinners as well and barbecues, and just kept going 


    Friend: I love that about you. I love the giving aspect. It's always been, it seems to have always been there. 


    Marie: Especially with cooking during construction of the apartment building. I used to cook for my. My Workman once a week, that started out with just a hearty soup on Wednesday morning. 


    And then eventually it went into spare ribs with mashed potatoes and vegetables and dessert, a whole thing, the whole thing. So every Wednesday, All the Workman came on Wednesdays. Cause they knew that they'd get a full meal. 


    Friend: How many, like how many men? 


    Marie: Uh, 45 days 


    Friend: That's like a catering yeah. Side gig catering. 


    Marie: And, but it was fun because I got to know my Workman. When I don't think that a lot of owners of buildings get to do that. That's just people that are working there, but I would sit down with them, find out about their life story and encourage them to do more .Yeah, it was a real comradery that I had with them. I remember just before Christmas, I decided I'd make a Christmas meal for themselves. I made a big Turkey with stuffing and mashed potatoes and vegetables and desserts. And I brought in my good China and tablecloths, and we set it up on, on boards and saw horses and fed them a huge meal. 


    And they were just so happy. 


    Friend: It's probably the best job they've ever worked on. 


    Marie: No one's ever treated us as well. Well, you all deserve it. You work hard and you were part of my family. So that was the, family aspect. 


    Friend: Wow. That's so kind. 


    Marie: Oh, it was fun. 


    Friend: Oh, you're so lovely. All right. Let's shift into, I have two more topics, art and mentoring. 


    So for the art questions, because you're also a prolific painter and you have the writing in, I mean, I don't know anyone who writes three volume epics, like you do the Odyssey. Exactly. So what or who influenced your creative pursuits? 


    Marie: I guess they were always there. And I dabbled in things when I was younger, but I never thought of myself being creative or artistic. 


    I just did things and I think probably started with restoring old furniture and then collecting photographs of family members from the past. And then researching family histories for other people as well. The painting only started when I was split 55. 


    Friend: It's never too late. It is never too late. 


    Marie: Right. I always tell people that now, because I thought I can't paint because I can't draw. And my friend said you don't have to draw. To be able to paint. So she took me to one of her painting classes and I instantly fell in love with the, creativity and just how my mind would go blank for three hours. And I wouldn't have to worry about anything and I couldn't wait to start my next painting and it's become a passion. 


    Friend: What kind of paint? 


    Marie: Oil painting and small canvases. I like to do very small detailed work. 


    Friend: Yes. 


    Marie: And I started with landscapes, but I've always wanted to do portraits. And that was so hard when I tried it. But now it's not so hard. All of a sudden I challenge myself all the time with the things that I wanted to do. 


    Friend: That's so good. Can you estimate how many paintings you've done? Cause I have walked through your gallery and it is, I mean, you, could you estimate how many paintings you've done in the years? 


    Marie: Probably between a hundred twenty five, a hundred and fifty 


    Friend: prolific. 


    Marie: It's like the wedding gowns. 


    Friend: Marie also collects wedding gowns. How many of those do you think you have? 


    Marie: At one point I had 275 of them. It started out with one little gown. Is that an auction and they were auction off this wedding gown and nobody wanted it. And it went down to $15 and I thought that's a piece of art. How could no one want to buy it? 


    So I bought it and then I just kept buying. 


    Friend: Do you still have them? I might. One of my designer, friends told me that the best way to learn how to sew is to disassemble garments. 


    Marie: Yes. 


    Friend: Would any of them be eligible for disassembling? All right. Maybe, maybe that's another project. So when, you know, you mentioned 


    Marie: um, 


    Friend: challenging yourself and going into painting portraits, can you give us your little secret for how you get the faces right?' cause, I've never heard that before now I'm new to this space, 


    Marie: If you've ever read about right brain left brain artists tend to be very good at this, but I have a problem with translating what I see on my original photo into my painting. So if I turn it upside down, both what I'm painting from and when I'm painting on, I can do a much better job because I not mixed up, it just comes out, what's on there I paint on my canvas, because I don't know what it is. I'm just painting that cube in there. 


    Friend: The upside down painter. I will I'll be interested to hear from Megan if she's ever heard of that in art school, but it, I mean, 


    Marie: It works, worked for you today. 


    Friend: I don't paint to sell. This is just a hobby for me as an expression. Most of the paintings I've done have been places that I've gone to, and I want to recreate that memory so I paint that. 


    It's wonderful. It's a wonderful hobby. Next question for you. Can you describe to the listeners how you are trying to inspire the next generation of artists? 


    Marie: Just artists? 


    Friend: Writers, musicians, bankers, any, I mean, you just have such a gift of encouraging people to do more than they think. 


    Marie: I just remembered something in this room. A few years ago, we had opera students here and they would do recitals because they needed practicing in front of people. So we would open it up to 50 people maximum and we would have entertainment on a Sunday afternoon. 


    Friend: Can we talk about this room because most rooms don't fit 50 opera singers. Could you just describe a little bit about what this room is that we're sitting in? 


    Marie: It's a really large conservatory. And I have a grand piano at the one end. And when I would have people in like this, I would just move all the furniture to the walls and bring in some other chairs. And just so it was comfortable and the acoustics in this room are great. For painting I mentioned about my grandchildren before. Quite a few of them wanted me to show them how to paint. So first time I did it, I think there were seven of them and they're all around the table and they're waiting there and I've got the paint. And I came out of the bedroom with a wig on and big glasses. And I were just talking like this, 


    Friend: Is that the archetype of the art teacher,? 


    Marie: It was that day and I had them each choose what they wanted to paint, and then I drew it on their campus for them. And then I just got them started and they loved it. They did their first painting. Then we did another session. We've done four sessions altogether, and I've noticed a change in how they're painting now. 


    Friend: And what's their age ranges ? 


    Marie: At the time. It was between four and 16. 


    Friend: Wow. 


    Marie: And the little ones were just as good as the older ones. And when we get together, now they always say, can we paint? I'm hoping that will continue in their lives. And that's the cooking. I do a lot of cooking with them too, because I think kids need to know how to cook. 


    Friend: Yes. So you could think can't get that on your iPad. No order. I mean, you can order, but it's not the same. Well, I think that's a wonderful thing that you're doing and you're so intentional about it. I think it's, it's just wonderful. 


    Marie: I get a lot of laughs out of it too, and they remember those things. 


    Friend: And in the end, you're still teaching. You didn't get that far away from now. What were you teaching when you were teaching? 


    Marie: English? 


    Friend: Okay. And what was your worst subject in school? 


    Marie: Math. 


    Friend: Common theme here. what's that about? 


    Marie: Because everyone else in my family was really good in math, but not me. And I could just, I just couldn't get it. I eventually got it when I went to university and had to take statistics and had a tutor and it fell into place. But I wasted all those years in high school suffering in math class. I didn't understand. 


    Friend: How we could start a support group. 


    Marie: Yeah. 


    Friend: All right. The last couple of things I wanted to talk about, it's it's in this sort of mentoring an influence side of things, and I don't mean influence in today's day. Instagram. I mean, like, no, you're really having an impact on young women's lives. What advice do you give to younger women when they're considering their options for career or education or even creative pursuits? 


    Do you, do you have standard advice or is it, you know, depending on the individual? 


    Marie: I usually start with a career inventory test. That will give him an interest or it's right. Give them input into other people in careers who have the same interests that they do and match them to what career they should be looking at. 


    That's a really good start. And then. It probably got 50 careers that are suggested. We'll go through all those with them. See if any of them seem interesting or making them do a little research on what that means to be an aeronautical engineer, just whatever is out there. And then from there, we look at universities, colleges, if they can afford to go away, if they have to stick around home. 


    And encourage them to get out on their own don't live at home because they need to be self-sufficient and manage their own lives. They can't have something to do it for them all the time. Yeah. Like what? 


    Friend: I think I'm edge case millenial here. 


    Um, all right. And last question for you. You have several daughters, as you mentioned, and young women that you've encouraged and mentored over the years. So for those listeners and some of our friends with young daughters themselves How do you encourage those mothers of daughters to encourage financial literacy and independence? 


    Marie: It's a whole package deal. You have to first focus on their self-confidence and build up their self confidence, whether it's in education or in their hobbies or interests. 


    And then once they feel secure in that knowledge about themselves, then you have to start telling them about the importance of having money using it wisely. How to earn money and how to keep your money and, you know, people don't usually talk about those things. 


    Friend: Exactly. 


    Marie: What you have to remind them that as a young woman, you can't expect to be taken care of You have to do it yourself and you have to watch out for yourself. I've lost my train of thought where I was going with this, but yeah. I've talked. I've done a lot of public speaking in the last 10 years, mainly because of the hotel that I bought, people want to know about that. And if I have an audience of women, I impress upon them how important it is to encourage young women. You know, if they're quiet or shy or if I'm the middle child, they won't get that attention. So whenever you have that chance, just reach out to these young people and give them the opportunity. For example, with my book launch, I could have hired someone who's done it before, but there's a young girl in the community who just graduated from university. 


    And I asked her, would she like to do it? I've never done it. I said, well, I'm sure you can find out how to do it, you know I'm on the internet? And so she's grasped that and she's investigated it and we're all ready for whenever the book launch is going to happen. So I like giving young people opportunities to prove to themselves that they can do it. And it's something else to put on their resume. 


    Friend: That's so trusting of you and. I'm just like, well, let's off the top of our heads. Think of all the ways you did that for me, you let me run a political fundraising event and a grand opening launch event. You hired me for grand opening launch event with catering Do you remember that mural? 


    Marie: Painted a mural in my house. 


    Friend: I'd never painted anything. Okay, you did a mural. What else? Sorts of things, just like that. 


    Marie: I would have dinner parties here and I would hire you to do all the cooking and serving. 


    Friend: Yes. And then I would hire staff. 


    Marie: I remember the first one and I had all the liquor bottles. So you said, well, what is that you had to put labels on, so you'd know what kind of, 


    Friend: cause I didn't even grow up in a house with alcohol. So I had no idea what was going on. All sorts of things. And it's good to know. I mean, that was 20 years ago almost. Yeah. So it's good to know that you're still taking a risk on these young because you know, I think that's really a very tangible and nice way to help launch other people. 


    Marie: Yeah. And everyone has that possibility of doing things. You just have to give them the opportunity and if they need a little bit. You get them guidance. Otherwise I usually just say, run with it and come back and 


    Friend: wow. That's, that's amazing. Marie, you are so special. Thank you for for both your input and your guidance over the decades, but also for sitting down with us for this. 


    Marie: Wow. I never imagine that I'd be on a podcast just because of the ordinary things that I do. 


    Friend: they are extraordinary. They are unusual. I think most of our listeners will not have met someone with the combination of creativity smarts, financial wisdom, independence, and generosity that you have. 


    So thank you. 


    Marie: I wanted to tell you one more story that kind of thought me going when I was teaching and I had to go to a luncheon. I was sitting beside a banker was just small town banker. And he asked me what I did. And I said, I was a teacher. And then course I knew what he did, and I said, you know, it's a shame that there aren't more women in banking. 


    He said, yeah, it's a rough life. And I said, well, you make it hard for women to get anywhere in banking because you move them around all the time and a woman just can't move her family. He said, yeah, that's, that's true. It's more of a man's world. And I said, well, don't you think you should change that? 


    And he said, no, it's good. The way it is. 


    Friend: What year was this? 


    Marie: Oh, this was 84. And then he said, You're not married. Are you? And I said, no, he said, yeah, I could tell. I thought, but that was, you know, that was in the midst of women's liberation. I wasn't a card carrying women's lib, but I certainly stood up for women's rights at that point in my career and always did. And I think that's what fostered me to become a proponent of young women and encouraged them to do whatever they could because of the archaic attitudes of the men in business back then. Wow. Bankers. 


    Friend: The bankers. And now look at us now you're sitting beside the one who's moved around and yeah, it was hard certainly on the personal life to be, you know, doing the moving. 


    That shouldn't have excluded me from no trying. Right. So in, in a lifetime, we've made some progress. 


    Marie: We have, I see a lot of progress. I also see the millennial women slipping back into subservient role. And that dismays me because I think, you know, we fought so hard for you to get to the top and now you're just don't want it. That was a little side note. 


    Friend: I like it. I like the side. Or do you have any other side notes or stories that you would like to go on record with? 


    Marie: Think about that. 


    Friend: You come back to us. We'll do a part two. 


    Marie: You know, you only have so many years to do what you want to do and I'm reaching the last chapter of mine. So I'm cramming in as much as I can and I'm going to have fun. but you're young. You still have all these years ahead of you, I think for how much fun you're gonna have doing creative things. 


    Friend: Yeah. Lots of times. 


    Marie: People need both creative and the regular jobs too. 


    Friend: Yeah. Good. Thank you so much fun. We did it. 


    Astute listeners will realize that only one of us was there. 


    Megan: So everyone, you figured it out there were only two classy women on that episode. And one of them wasn't me. 


    Friend: Because, logistics. 


    Megan: Well, yeah, also sometimes we're going to interview people that we like want to sit in the same room as, and sometimes there's a pandemic or childcare conflicts, and that's just like, 


    Also there's geography, which is just a general issue. 


    Friend: One of us had to cross a border to get that interview. 


    And, it was, I think it was a Saturday, Friday or Saturday night and that's prime family time for one of us. 


    Megan: Correct. 


    Okay. Here's what we're going to do. We're going to react to Marie. I have like eight talking points. I could do a whole episode on my reactions to her. 


    I think we need to get her back again. Number one, she is in fact, a reincarnation of Peggy Guggenheim, who I'm obsessed with, with she has the little dogs. She has a literal conservatory in her home where she invites an opera singers. She travels the world. She does philanthropic things for people. I mean, what an angel of a human.. 


    She's angelic and interesting and intellectual and humble. It was like such a lovely compilation of attributes. I was like, I love her. 


    Number two, I do want to make one disclaimer And I don't want to correct what she said necessarily, but I want to address one thing she taught for 20 years and she, I think loved it, but she also might've regretted it a little. I I'd sensed in her voice. What's your take on to that? 


    Friend: I think she loves. 


    And she was working in a niche area or in a special area with, you know, very high potential young women. 


    But I, I think her regret was that it was like an opportunity cost 


    regret, the other things that she could have done with those years and staying in it for too long. 


    Megan: Okay. My commentary on that is like, there's no judgment on this podcast of teachers. Like they're clearly the most valuable member of society. If you are a teacher, there's literally no fighting it because this woman is a teacher. She's a mentor, but she just doesn't need to be a classroom teacher for life. 


    And a bigger issue that I heard kind of woven in. And of course she's much older than us too. is that maybe she just didn't have as many options. And so teacher is often presented to women. As a choice that is safe. And I took the bait on that as well. Right. I was an art major. I was a Spanish major. I didn't know what to turn that into right off the bat. 


    So I became a teacher only to find out accidentally that I was like really good at it and loved it. But. I don't want people listening, who are teachers to be offended by the thought that it is like a dead end job or like a thing that you, you shouldn't choose. What I do want people to understand is that as a woman, you have every opportunity. 


    And more, you can literally make up your job, right? Like Marie is a perfect example of that. So you don't have to pigeonhole yourself into a career that feels safe forever. And I 


    think that should be the takeaway. 


    I just want to be clear, clear, clear on that. 


    Friend: That's great. We love teachers. We need teachers. 


    Megan: I mean, they're essential. 


    Friend: We're always seeking out teachers in life. I think it has to also be a, would love our listeners to remember, to keep it in its context. And this was the seventies, right? 


    I would guess I didn't ask her this question, but I think mid to late seventies, when she was making her career choices, that's a very different, right, her options were really different 


    Megan: Then what girls now are doing 


    Friend: Exactly. So I think that's, that's a little bit of it is that if you feel like you didn't have more choice and so you pick something, but it wasn't really the right thing for you. 


    Megan: But I do think there's a lack of opportunity that she mentioned sort of as for subtext, not opportunity, but choice in her own career, choosing that, mean that choosing that career is bad 


    Friend: No, it just meant for her. 


    Megan: for her it wasn't what she wanted. 


    Friend: And it just so happens that for you, you realized that there were other things that you could also do that doesn't like, that's an individual reaction. So I'm hoping that the audience is mature enough to, to be like, cool, cool. 


    Megan: And of course we're like, we're always taking into account like, duh, this, this podcast is about finance. So we're taking into account that like at a, at a point, someone does have to pay the bills, right? Like a job as a job, as a job at certain points in your life, it doesn't always have to be the dream job. 


    It doesn't always have to be like lucrative. Sometimes you just have, have an experience and you build on that. So I think it's more about having the opportunity to expand. And not feel stuck. 


    Friend: Yeah. I mean, it's good. I was wondering if you might have had some thoughts about that, so I'm glad you raised it. 


    Megan: Well, I just don't want to offend teachers right now, especially because they do deserve to be paid double, if not triple, 


    Friend: in the U S like what are what's happening? 


    Megan: and I've seen them literally saved my children's lives this past year. Like, so it's just that the work they're doing is 


    Friend: Marvelous. 


    Yeah. 


    Megan: Okay. 


    Friend: No, good. I think that's a good, good point. What else? 


    Megan: I thought that her career trajectory was hilarious. Honestly. I think it's so interesting to hear from someone who is so interested in so many things, and it's really healthy to think of that because I don't think we're in the, times anymore of picking one career and going in that direction forever. 


    And I think it's okay to kind of accept that. but yes, the, the non-linear trajectory sometimes I think is seen negatively. What's your take on that? 


    Friend: No, I say, go for it. You have one life. Try everything. 


    Megan: But in your world of finance, is it linear? Is that preferred or glamorized or is it okay to take the road less traveled? 


    Friend: I think linear is a more direct road to the top. It's faster, but it's boring. 


    In my, my singular view, you know, I like the diversity of trying different things and what's great about finance and I would love to do this more in depth somewhere else. On another episode. Is that working in finance is so many things. 


    It's not just one, like one track. You do one thing all day long, you just process loan applications. there's so much like we're a technology company and we're a law firm you know, we have a massive HR department and we, manage risk, Like there's so many dimensions to It that I would rather take the road less traveled and try all sorts of different things, work in different departments and groups then just be like speed through doing one thing to The top. I also think it makes you a better leader. I am a little biased, but I came from, a bank that believed in what they call mobility, which is basically like geographic and subject matter variance, you know, movements so that you can see things from a whole bunch of different perspectives. 


    And once you've done that, then you're a better manager, because you can think globally, you can't just you know, some people I work with, they miss, they don't even miss the forest for the trees. They miss the trees for the pattern on the bark. And I think to be running these massive firms, you need to see like, where did the trees fit in the ecosystem? 


    Megan: I love that because it's just important for women in any industry to understand that it's choose your own adventure, especially when you're following a creative passion. And when you want to make a lot of money, it applies to both routes and all of the skills you collect along the way. This is what Marie mentioned too, is like, you're basically just collecting a resume that then eventually you will use, right? 


    So her giving opportunities to young people like that is humungous. I think of people doing that for people. That's amazing. 


    Friend: I love the trust that that takes too like, think of, you know, hiring somebody to work in your home or in your business, how easily. Could you, I'm asking myself this question, like how easy is it for me to just let go of the reins and be like, Yeah, sure, no problem come and manage my whatever for me. it's hard. 


    Megan: Yeah. I don't like delegating and I think it takes a lot of humility to be able to delegate and faith in people. Like she has a great deal of faith in others. 


    Friend: yeah. 


    Megan: That's just lovely. 


    Friend: You know, I came from a family with no alcohol for most of my life. And when I started working with her, she would have these wonderful parties, basically all you can eat and drink and dance and so on. And I was hiring people to run the bar, I was kind of overseeing and I had no idea what we were serving. Like none. she could have been like, okay, I can't hire you for that part. Or she could have been like, all right, well, I'll just educate you and find a way for you to learn it without having any experience in it. 


    Megan: I mean, that's why she's truly a teacher, cause she's willing to like work through it with anyone in any subject. And that's like maybe not a career for life, but that's still a skill that she's always going to use and have, she's still teaching people everywhere, everywhere. She goes. 


    It's inescapable. 


    I mean, and this is why sometimes I believe in like, people are really good at certain tasks, no matter what their career is. Right. They're really just, there are some fundamentals that each person can say, this is my gift. This is what I'm really good at it. And like, you can apply that to wherever you 


    Friend: Exactly. I mean, you can teach at a bank. We have entire, we have an entire learning department and every bank does. So if that's your gift, but you want to make a little more money or you want to try something different, you know, go corporate, get out of the classroom. You can, you can do that working in a corporate environment. It's the same skill and it will make you good, no matter where you apply it. 


    Megan: I like that. She, um, seems quite free too, for a woman of her generation, which makes it sound so old. I'm sorry, Marie don't take that the wrong way, for a person who is wiser than us, she is free in a way that I find to be very admirable and like a goal of mine. She's not necessarily independent of her husband or family, and that's not something I crave either, but I do want to feel like my choices are mine as that, especially as you get older and older, it's nice to know that you can maintain your own identity through motherhood, marriage, businesses, careers, you know, like she's still herself. 


    Friend: Yeah. Well, I, think there's two parts in that one is her deciding. Do exactly what she needs to be herself. And the other is her partner deciding that he fell in love with her because of who she was, why would he want her to change? 


    And so they have this beautiful, like independent but supportive relationship where they both get to be exactly who they are. Yeah. it's really cute. 


    Megan: That's really special I think those were my overwhelming thoughts. 


    Friend: Okay. 


    Megan: else do you think we should reflect on? Is there anything we missed? 


    Friend: I forgot to ask her two things. I forgot to ask her about her own activities as a collector. 


    And I forgot to ask her to assign homework, 


    Megan: Oh, well, her homework is for all of us to, um, be very well-rounded people 


    like when she was listing her abilities and hobbies and just passions, I was like, all right, surely I can make dinner, like Meghan, get out a recipe and try harder. You know, I just think like all of us, not to, not for the aim of perfection, but for the, like, for the goal of trying. 


    Friend: So I texted her afterwards to say, oops, I forgot. Is there anything you would like to assign? So let me just read it here. She says, um, do some math puzzles, which I thought was just keep your mind sharp. And, play the piano. For me, she tells me to keep painting every week. 


    Megan: So let's just like, keep trying something new. stretch your mind beyond the mundane. I was kind of hoping she would, she would, her homework assignment was like, come to my gala. 


    I can't, I can just picture her being like, all right, girls, I'm having a gala. 


    Friend: yeah. 


    Megan: Don't worry about the dresses. I have a collection. 


    Like, are you a fairy godmother? 


    What's happening? 


    Friend: Totally is, she totally is., I would, I would love to know from the listeners, is what questions would you have for someone like Marie? 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: I don't know that we'll do like an Ask marie because She's clearly very busy, 


    Megan: She's got a lot to do. 


    Friend: Not everyone has someone like that in their life. 


    Megan: Yeah. It's rare to find someone who's older and that confident and that interested in the world. 


    Friend: And that interested in passing it along I think she really has a passion for bringing others along with her. It's not just for her. 


    Megan: Totally cool interview. Thank you for doing it so that I could burgers. Thank you for helping me with my work-life balance. 


    Friend: Well, we don't want people to think that you're working part-time at McDonald's. So I'm sure you don't always serve burgers 


    Megan: I do flip a lot of things here. I flipped waffles. We like circle food more on that in the next episode. I think we'll leave it at that. 


    Friend: That was amazing. 


    Awesome. 


    As always, for listening to The Arts. 


    Megan: This is Megan of Art by Megan. 


    Friend: And her friend, your patron of the arts. 


    Megan: Wishing you more art. 


    Friend: And maybe, a better understanding of your money. 


Third and Fourth
Episode 009 - Guest Interview: Evie the Economist

We welcome economics professor and author Evie Adomait on the show today to talk about the art market, how economics is a lot of pictures and storytelling, and why it makes sense to curate your friend portfolio.

Listen, follow and review us on your go-to podcast directory: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | Google Podcasts

Show Notes

  • Guest: Evie Adomait is the Assistant Professor of Economics and Faculty Advisor in the Department of Economics and Finance at the University of Guelph.

    Evie’s books:

    Cocktail Party Economics

    Dinner Party Economics

    are at the University of Guelph bookstore.

    American Banker article on tax evasion.

    Bloomberg article on bank burnout.

    Euromoney article on art lending.

    Art for Your Ear podcast

    The Great Women Artists podcast

    Artist Brenda L Murray

    Homework:

    Make friends with someone in another industry, and curate your friendships so you have diversity of thought.

    Rate, follow, like, or share The Art$ with a friend.

    We would love to hear from you! Email us your questions and ideas at podcast at artbymegan dot com

  • 
Friend: Welcome to The Arts, a brand new podcast about art and money. I've spent my career managing at some of the world's largest financial institutions. So I can't tell you my name, but trust me, talking about money is my jam. 


    Megan: And I'm Megan, I'm an artist and a teacher. And now co-host of this amazing podcast. We're having this conversation because we came to a realization. We have no idea how the other person spends her workday. 


    Friend: Or her money. So let's chat about it. 


    Megan: Okay. On today's show. We are talking with, wait for it, and trust us that we're all in this together and it's going to be fine, an economics professor. 


    Friend: Yes. It was inevitable. Next to math or finance, economics is one of those anxiety causing subjects that need some demystification. And I know just the person to help us with that. She wasn't my professor, but she is a friend and I did make a few help SOS calls to her when I was trying to eke out an acceptable grade in my economics class. 


    And she did come through. What about you? Have you ever taken an economics class? 


    Megan: No, because in college, I can't recall if I actually ever stepped foot into the business school, but there was this like mysterious land, right, of the business school where all these super serious students took their business classes. And I felt like I wasn't good enough.. 


    I don't mean that to sound like Megan playing her a little violin outside, you know, but I just didn't think it was my world. I felt like I had no business going in there. 


    Friend: The business schools are nice. They're usually well-funded, it's a nice place to study. 


    Megan: I took a marketing class and loved it, which is quite obvious now when I market for fun for my business. But I was terrified about anything related to math. Still am. We're working through it together. 


    Friend: Yes, we are. 


    Megan: But like, all right. So the economics professor thing, it's hard for me right now. I'm like scratching myself. Um, could we start with like addition? 


    Friend: Uh, we could, but I have more faith in you and in our listeners than that, that would be too remedial. Come on. We can do this. Let's go! 


    Megan: All right. Friends let's do this, but first The Scene. 


    Friend: The Scene. Okay, so friend, what is trending in the arts this week? 


    Yes. Well, I'm going to flip it around and tell you what's trending in the finance this 


    I did a little digging. I was thinking, you know what? We haven't, we've talked a lot about art and artists and art books so on. And I thought that's not... Let me just go for it. We can all handle a little bit of finance news. And so I found a couple of articles that we'll link to to that I thought were an either sort of can be interesting on its own or had an intersection with art and finance. Yep. So the first article is in the American Banker and the headline. I'm totally a headline person, I skim the headlines and then fill in the blanks. 


    Megan: That's what they're for. 


    Friend: Right. 


    Attention grabbing. This is not clickbait. This is just, this is actual finance news. I will say, before I get into talking about any finance news for future episodes. I am not going to identify the bank that I work for. 


    I get finance news in my inbox every day, and it is a mixed bag, you know, there's something for all the banks. So don't go reading into whatever banks I'm about to talk about. I'm pulling this from like a generic newsletter related to things 


    Megan: I just thought of the best photo shoot for us. For social media. 


    Friend: Is it me reading the Financial Times? 


    Megan: No, it's you reading Architectural Digest or like Art News and me reading modern banker or whatever you just said, 


    Friend: Oh, I like it. I like it. 


    Megan: You know, duh, covering our faces cause you're anonymous. All right. Carry on. 


    Friend: Okay. So the American banker has this article, " Nasty family drama with Bank of America board member exposes the tax risk of gifts." So there's this board member at Bank of America's pretty large bank. And, because of the divorce that is ongoing between his daughter and his son-in-law um, we say tax evasion behavior? Is now making the news. And, it's really like, it's quite dramatic. I would recommend giving it a read. It's about the little notes he wrote to them from, you know, the bank of mom and dad. And like, this is a loan because if you, give someone a gift it's taxed differently than if you give them a loan. And if you get a loan and you pay interest on it, then you don't have to pay tax on and so on. And so anyways, really great article, it is about taxes, but it is well-written, it is dramatic and quite interesting. And I recommend giving it a read. 


    Megan: Juicy. 


    Friend: Exactly exactly. The second one for today is this one I thought was interesting because we know that the pandemic has been hard on all sorts of industries. And I have a hunch that our artist friends are a little more in touch with their, you know, what it's doing to their mental health and so on. 


    Not so much with the bankers, maybe? So this one is in, this was a Bloomberg article, " Wall street firms joined mental health program, fighting stigma". So six of the big banks in the U S have joined a New York based non-profit that works to reduce the stigma around mental health. So the article is around how, you know, bankers are facing burnout. This frenetic pace of working around the clock, never leaving the office, the long hours, the, the deal flow and so on, what that was doing to some bankers and how these six firms are working together with a nonprofit to see how they can introduce best practices and start to acknowledge that, you know, bankers have challenges as well. 


    Megan: Like they're human. That's good though. I mean, that's progress when we talk about progress a lot related to, women in workplaces. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: is it's good news. 


    Friend: So that's a partnership with the national Alliance on mental illness, which I think is kind of Cool. And then the last one I saved the best for last, this one. I'm so excited about. I actually think I might print it. I like paper. I found it online, but I would like to print it and highlight it and keep it in my treasure box. 


    Megan: That's like your vision of a wild weekend. It's like, I love this article so much. I'm printing it, 


    Friend: Yes. So in Euro money. and the headline is, "Deutsche Bank's John Arena: art lending is a simple proposition." So there is this banker who works at Deutsche Bank and his sole job is to lend against art as an asset. And it is illuminating. Oh, my goodness. So he works with super or like ultra high net worth clients who have collections in the tens and hundreds of millions. 


    This is the value of their art collection they can get loans against that art at a rate of 50%. So if a piece is worth 10 million, they could borrow five, because the art becomes the collateral. 


    Megan: Oh, Oh that is wild. 


    What if we can get him on the podcast? 


    Friend: Right. 


    Megan: You never know. I mean, we, we could shoot an email and see what happens? That's intriguing. 


    Friend: Yes. is very clear in the article is how passionate this John Arena is about both art and lending. So I thought that was really cool. 


    Megan: That was a really cool. Okay. I love those. I will print one of those articles as well. I'm not going to tell you which one. I have some art podcasts for our listeners to check out. It feels like, a real disruption of a scarcity mindset to share competitive knowledge. And these are not competitors. 


    These are very well-established super well-respected, podcasts that have been around forever. So the first one is the Great Women Artists. Have you heard of these or there's the other one, which I love, which is called Art for your Ear, which is kind of a fun title. Both of them are great. 


    Both of them highlight women. Sometimes male, but mostly female artists, both of the past and current, the Great Women Artists is more of like an art history podcast, Art for your Ears more of interviews with living artists of varying degrees of establishment and success. So it's like a really nice, comprehensive approach to understanding people in our world both of the hosts are great. 


    So the Great Women Artists is Katy Hessel. We'll, we'll link to all of this. And I say her name like that because she's British and her accent is just so fabulous. And like her mannerisms are, she's like British me. Like she's really intense and like crazy with her reactions. And I just love her enthusiasm. 


    And then, Danielle Krysa is the host for Art for your Ear. And she is a Canadian and very quirky and funny. 


    Friend: That's fun. They both sound great. I will check them out. I love to find new podcasts and have new things to listen to while I'm running. Can't listen to us the time. I mean, 


    Megan: I agree. Hey, I have another topic to talk about. Do you like chocolate? 


    Friend: Yes. 


    Megan: I do too. 


    Friend: What is going on? I know what you're doing. 


    You're 


    Megan: I got you. 


    Friend: You totally got me. I was like do we have a secret sponsor? 


    Megan: Oh my gosh, I wish 


    Friend: it, a dark chocolate provider? Cause I am totally in. No, I know what you're doing. You're procrastinating from our main exhibit today. 


    Megan: This is correct. I'll admit to it, but I want you to understand something about my past. This tactic has been highly effective my entire life. I'm very good at derailing conversations to my advantage, and it was extremely effective in my high school math class, where I would literally distract the teacher with whatever I had available in my arsenal of tools that day. And then I would scamper down the hallway to my secret hideout, the art room. And the pre-calculus teacher was quite, pleased with my absence. Sometimes. 


    Friend: Probably some of the other students as well. 


    Megan: They were like, get her out, let her stay in the art room. 


    Friend: Just send her to art. 


    Megan: No, but you know, I won, I won, they told me you're not loving this class. Are you? And I was like, you are correct. Could I please take APR? And they were like, fine. 


    Friend: What's AP? 


    Megan: is like in America, we do these classes called AP where you are taking college credit, but while in high school, 


    Friend: Okay. So what does AP stand for? 


    Megan: Advanced Placement. 


    Friend: Okay, so it means your smarty pants and you're.. 


    Megan: Art Professional. 


    Friend: Art professional, in a hurry, to get ahead. Okay. 


    Megan: Yeah. So I escaped. 


    Friend: So you escaped, but, uh, you did not distract me. I will not be distracted. We have our guest waiting in the wings here. She's lovely. You're going to love her. She has a way of making economics interesting and accessible, and I think we could all use some of that. So let us be on our way to economics 1 0 1. 


    Megan: We can do it. 


    Friend: Yay. 


    The Main Exhibit. I'm very pleased to, introduce our guests on the show today, Evie Adomait. Evie is an Assistant Professor of Economics at the University of Guelph, which is in Guelph Ontario. Evie is also the co-author of the fantastic book cocktail party economics. 


    Megan: Welcome. We're so excited and honored to have you with us today. 


    Evie: No problem. I'm happy to be here. 


    Friend: Evie also happens to be one of my very first bosses. She hired me to keep her children alive. 


    Evie: Yeah. You taught my kids to ride a bike. 


    Megan: Oh, 


    Evie: I couldn't, do it cause they kept falling but you were quite heartless. So it was good. 


    Megan: Sometimes you need a neutral third party. 


    Evie: Yeah, they'll let the falls happen. Get up. It's okay. You can do it. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Evie: The ...other thing that you did that I think actually affected my oldest one, particularly as you taught them how to play monopoly. So I, I think you have some finance definitely in your background because you were, you played to win. 


    Megan: Oh, my gosh. That's so on brand for this podcast. 


    Friend: It really is. We had multi-day very complicated monopoly games. 


    Evie: Yes. 


    Megan: Of course, of course you did. All right. Well, my friend here has told me a little bit about you and your book, and we did a major high-level bio in our intro, but I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about how you got to where you are and if you're really good at math. 


    Evie: I'm not bad at math. Uh, yeah, my math skills are, are fine. So they're, they're good enough. I can learn what I need to learn to use. I guess what happened is my life was very much, saying yes, a lot to things that took me on trails that I never anticipated when I was younger, no one ever told me I would be an economist. 


    I didn't even know what that was. So I think what happened is I was offered things along the way and I just kept saying, yeah, so I'll try that. Sure, sure. And then next thing you know, I was asked you want to try grad school. Sure, sure. And there was a lot of times when I graduated in a recession. And so I remember the chair of the economics department said to me, so what are you gonna do next? 


    I said, oh, I, I think I might try to go to teacher's college, but it was a recession and I had no money and I had student loans and he said, oh, well, why don't you come here and go to grad school, we'll pay you. I thought, well, that's how it's okay. And so I ended up going in that pathway and I loved it. 


    So my career is a little different than most academics in that I never did do a PhD, which you can't have my job anymore without a PhD. And so I just kept staying under the radar and getting hired on continual contracts. And my philosophy was I would go into the Chair and say, okay, what can I do to make myself invaluable to you so you don't fire me? And they would just tell me what they need say, consider it done. And I would, I just became good at collaboration, making things happen. And then, the University of Guelph unionized. And by that point I had been working for 18 years and they said you can't fire her so then they had to offer me a secure appointment. And then after that happened, I felt so guilty because my pay went up so much that I said, okay, I better do something more. I just felt really guilty. And so I, um, decided to write a book, called Cocktail Party Economics to, and partly it was, it was, motivated by me going to a women's retreats. 


    And all these women started asking me questions and I realized they feel dumb and they're not dumb. They're smart people, they just don't know about this. That's all. It's not that they're dumb. But what they're asking me takes more than a five minute conversation. So I decided to write a book to kind of lay the groundwork. 


    And then, because I realized working in a silo makes you not able to communicate. I have a very good friend, Richard Miranda, who was an English major, very creative guy. And I said, do you want to partner with me because I need this to be accessible. And so we, I wrote the book and he basically, commentaried it he would do things like he would block call sections. 


    This is boring. Why? Why should I care? Oh, okay. I guess I should make it more interesting. So I was really pleased with how the book turned out because it's some, somebody commented once. It's like a, a chick economics. 


    Megan: I mean, it's rare. They don't exist. So you tapped into a market that needed it. 


    Friend: What I love about the book is how, how intentional you are about trying to make economics accessible. And I think that aligns really closely in what you've just said about like the topic, making people feel dumb. I think that's something that Megan and I both experienced in our fields. And that's what we're trying to do with this conversation is make it so that women don't feel dumb when they talk about art and when they talk about finance. So I think there is some similarity there in, in what we were all trying to do for our women. 


    Megan: I love that you did that. And I love that it was inspired by a women's retreat. Like how cool, what are, it's just like such an interesting road that your life has taken. That's so interesting. 


    Friend: Did that tie back to feeling bad about the pay? Was there some link between writing the book and. 


    Evie: Yeah, I, decided I needed to step up my game to do more because I think one of the things in economics is we kind of, do marginal costs, marginal benefits. So when I was making less money, even though I was on contract, I wasn't killing myself. I was realizing they're getting value for what I do. But then when my pay went up, it went okay. 


    I have to create more value because I'm getting paid more because what I was doing was worth the money that I was getting paid. But now I was getting more like my pay almost doubled overnight. Like it was pretty major. And so I went, oh, okay. What am I going to do to be more valuable? I actually wrote it in the summer and pretty well I think I ended up with carpal tunnel and I like shoulder issues. And I, and I said to myself, I will never do that again, it was physically horrible. 


    Megan: I've heard that from a lot of authors that it's grueling. And I feel like there's this misconception that if you're a writer, you're like this tortured, but you know, fulfilled human smoking cigarettes at a cafe in Paris, you know? But it's like, you're just like crunching information out of your brain. Like Shroder from the peanuts, you know, just all day in the same position. It's too 


    Evie: Yeah. And It's not good for your shoulders. I can tell 


    Megan: No, no. I mean, I can relate as an artist because my left arm and shoulder, when I work on like a big painting, like the one in the back of here, I mean, I am sore. So I have to, I'm trying to become ambidextrous 


    Evie: Yes. 


    Megan: Because it's like, it's really hard on your body. 


    Evie: Yes, it is. 


    Megan: Okay. One of our favorite questions to ask people, which is like, sort of the reason we started this podcast is what do you do all day? Because what we're trying to do is sort of remove the mystery from other people's lives. So now we've seen a little bit into your world as a writer, um, with the grueling typing. 


    But, have a background in teaching. I was a high school teacher for 10 years, so I know sort of what teachers do all day, but I don't know from the professor angle, what to do all day as a professor? 


    Evie: Well, I have like the best job in the whole world. I have to tell you, I get to work with very smart people. My son often says that mom, you have no idea what the real world was like. You only work with very smart people. I go, yes, I do I work with MENSA subtypes. So I do a lot of, working in a classroom where I teach. 


    So I, you have to prepare your lectures. You go, you lecture, you set up midterms, you know, you, you structure the court, which is now a lot on, kind of platforms. So we have a particular platform we use where you upload everything. And so this afternoon I will be teaching my class on zoom on Tuesdays and then in person on Thursdays. 


    And then I'm on a lot of committees. And I also do academic advising in our department and I sit on Senate, so I go to meetings, I sit on a sentate sub committee. So I go to more meetings. I go to a lot of meetings and actually what the pandemic has done has made a lot of those meetings go online, which some point is a relief. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Evie: The only thing I don't like doing is teaching on zoom. When you have it, like, I have a class of 300 that isn't fun on zoom because you just don't see students. Where in class, it's much more, there's a dynamic relationship that happens between students and yourself. When you're, you know, you're almost a performer. I tell people sometimes being a professor is like dinner and a show like 


    Megan: It is, it really is, 


    Evie: you're not this intimate one-on-one feel, I don't know my students' names, 


    Megan: but you're sort of there to entertain them in a way, right. You're there to say, like, this is economics and you're going to love it. And I hope you do, you know, it's like, it's song and dance. 


    Evie: Maybe yeah. The good profs try to be semi-interesting you know, but you know, you don't have to. 


    Friend: Is it a required course for many of the students? 


    Evie: Oh, yeah. Everybody intro to business has to take intro micro an intro macro. So everybody's taking this course. So I see I've taught the equivalent of a small of a, of a village, like more than 30,000 students in my career. So 


    Friend: Wow. 


    Evie: and which is why I actually don't live in Guelph. I, you know, somebody said to me, why don't you move to Guelph because you work there and I go. I can't go anywhere and not run into someone who knows me. 


    I have to tell you this story. It's sorta funny. I remember my oldest son came to university and he says, mom, I don't think I'm going to tell people we're related. I said, no problem. Don't tell people, were related. And he says, so I might not give people my last name. 


    I said, no problem. And then the first couple days of classes, he came up to the front of the class. He was in the class. So he was registered in another prof section, but he came to my lectures. And he came up and he called me mom and I went, I thought you weren't going to tech to help people that were related. 


    He goes, oh mom, I thought you would be a liability, but you're actually an asset. 


    Megan: he's using the craft of business terminology, you know, like 


    Friend: He played a, lot of monopoly. 


    Evie: He did. And he made a fortune tutoring in economics cause he has a 90 plus average. And so once he had his last name, he played that name and used it as a brand. 


    Friend: That's so funny. Oh my gosh. All right. So have you, you'll see a pattern here on the show. Megan wants to know how we all spend our days and I want to know how we all spend our money. 


    Evie: Okay. 


    Friend: So I'm wondering if we start with the latter there. If you could start to help us understand a little bit about economic. 


    And how that impacts various parts of our life. 


    Evie: Yeah, well, you know what? Here's the deal. A lot of people will ask me questions. Like in class one guy I wanted to know what he should do if interest rates are going up and I actually made a disclaimer right away, I said, look, it, I'm not here to give financial information to students. 


    I am not liable for you losing your money. The thing with economists is we study systems. So, how the system works, but you can do fine financially with just following a few simple rules. You don't need to understand the system to do fine. And because we know things like what's called the efficient market theory, nobody is better than anybody else at predicting the future, except if you're an insider and most of us are not insiders. So trying to guess the market is kind of impossible as far as I'm concerned. So I don't even bother to try. You know, I just don't bother. So with terms of my finances, what we did was as soon as I could sign up for the pension plan, smartest move I ever made. 


    Right. I am going to be set. My pension is fantastic. I have a really good pension. And one of the theories that Professor Taylor came out with Nudge. It's the idea that you nudge people into good behavior without it being super costly. And so things like you have to sign up for the pension and as soon as you can, right. That the employer does it. You have to opt out rather than opting in. All right. That's a nudge that makes you just do it cause you're lazy. So you opt in and the next thing you know, you've saved a lot of. You know, because the thing about saving money is time and interest. And I've been working since 88. So my money has been tied up for a long, long time. And that's means I have a great amount of savings. Also, the government allows you to here to, save and have some tax advantages. So just start with a monthly plan that just makes you save money. And don't think about it. And if you are starting with a small amount of money, try really hard to go with an index fund that covers the broad economy where everyone is trying to guess what's good. And now you're free riding on their knowledge and has low management fees. And there you go, just do it monthly. And don't think about it because I find a lot of times with my friends who are artists, they don't want to think about money. They find it boring. I find it boring. Actually, I don't want to, I don't check my funds all the time. 


    I think economics is interesting because it's about ideas, but I, think checking my accounts is like, oh no, this is like, why I don't check my funds every day. I, I, I don't want to do that. so simple rules can help you without you having to be an economist. 


    Friend: Right. Yeah. And we definitely, I mean, we also have a disclaimer, you know, we're not here for financial, accounting, legal, like we're hoping this isn't about. All right. We're not giving advice. We don't even know who's listening. What we're trying, what we're trying to do is make some topics accessible and easy to understand. 


    So it's like, we were talking to one of our friends the other day and she was like, Oh, my worst subject was economics. You know? And you've probably heard that since 1988. Right. for those people in the room, how do you make economics interesting and important? 


    Like how do you explain that it's important? 


    Evie: I mean, microeconomics is about how people make choices. So we're just modeling, we're creating models. So in some ways, I think in pictures. That's how I think, I think in pictures because everything's a graph for me. And so I don't think in words. And so when I'm talking about supply and demand with students, I'm trying to say we're storytelling, we're telling stories, and we're trying to make some guesses about the future. 


    This, if a particular event happens, knowing how it will affect the picture. So if you're interested, this gives you knowledge can make you feel very, um, you don't need a lot of knowledge and economics to not feel stupid. So that's also a big thing that sometimes people just feel like it's a black hole and they have no idea what this means and intro econ can kind of put structure to it and then it's okay. 


    You know, it's I guess it would be like someone saying, oh, I, you know, I have no idea what to do for painting. And someone comes along and says, well, let me show you the color wheel. 


    Megan: Right. 


    Evie: And now you have, oh, well these are compliment. Oh, okay. I didn't know that if once you know something, then you go, oh, okay. That helps you to think about what the government is doing. And micro and macro or different micro is about individual markets, so you know, the car market, the housing market, how individual markets are responding and then why prices are going up and why sales are increasing and so forth. Macro is more about how the economy as a whole is aggregated. And when it's aggregated, you know, how does the government influence the economy as a whole? And that. That's a very powerful thing to know as well. Like what's the central bank in the U S the Federal Reserve in Canada, the Bank of Canada. What are they doing? Should they be concerned about inflation? 


    Should they not be concerned about inflation? So again, it's creating structure that makes you go, oh, okay. It doesn't feel like a big mess anymore. It feels like I can see some lines and I can see a frame. 


    Megan: I'm just really wishing you were my professor. I'm like, all I want to do is travel back in time and take a business course where the professor could explain it to me properly because I just, that's one of my major regrets as a business owner now, like not understanding it at the age of 18 really impacted what I was confident about. 


    Evie: It is too bad. And I mean, I'm going to tell you that students fall into two groups for me, some who loved me and some who hate my guts. So I think there's a distribution. So I'm not claiming to be a master teacher here. There's others who are much better at it. But I do think it's important, if you're going to take a course, to try to get the guts of it, you know. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Evie: That's helpful. 


    Megan: It's interesting. 


    Friend: So, as an economist, and you've just mentioned, you'd love charts and pictures, we thought you might appreciate some of our own illustrations and graphs. Did you get a chance to look at the money talk? or the money mind grid that we sent over? 


    Evie: Oh about how you feel a little bit. 


    Friend: Yeah, where you are like comfort level. And where would you put yourself on the grid? Did either of those resonate? 


    Evie: I did, but that's yeah. Sort of felt like you're doing a personality test. 


    Megan: Sorta. 


    Friend: Yeah, a little. 


    Evie: Yeah. So I felt like, oh, okay. They're trying to get a sense about how comfortable and I realized, you know, how comfortable am I? I'm very comfortable talking about money, but of course money is usually private. People don't want to discuss their own financial situation. 


    You know, how much they make. And all of us have made mistakes financially too. And this is the one thing that I think people have to understand: one of the things about owning your own business is that one of the theories and economics is that you should maximize profits, right? and then once people start to experience losses, uh, we have shutdown points or people leave the market, and this is usually true. 


    It depends on what your next best option is. Your opportunity costs. Okay. So what are you giving up to do this particular venture? But it doesn't take into the count when people are doing it, not for the money, but for the love of it. And so they're going to lose a lot of money and when people are willing to lose a lot of money you need a partner. Who's going to make sure you're not homeless. And I found that when people own their own business, they often can get sucked into being more hopeful, they're over optimistic about how they're going to make a career of this. And, so then you need a plan. And so often the most successful business, typically have partners, people who will ask the hard questions go, what are we doing? 


    This isn't working, you know? And sometimes the smartest thing to do is to quit. But that's very difficult to do if you love what you do. And so getting, figuring out ways to get paid, to what you love to do, is a skill. 


    Megan: I just randomly added some personal information here, but I agree with this. So whole heartedly I'm like violently shaking my head because I have had to scaffold my business in such a way where I know I teach still, like I can't escape it. It's just like in my blood. So I know that I'll earn X amount from teaching. 


    I know that I'll earn X amount from these other partnerships I have. And then the art is a question mark and always will be because the art market is a question mark, but I have allowed it to be part of the general structure of my business, because originally I was just trying to do the art and it was anxiety provoking, to be honest, I couldn't calculate and my tax guys constantly like, but how can you, how come you can't look at trends? There just aren't enough facts. And certain industries are like this, you know, I could have a wild January and then nothing for six months or vice versa. So it's like in order to be a smart business woman, you have to understand that like there has to be a structure in place and I'm so relieved having an expert say that too. 


    Evie: I think it's, critical because if you don't do that, you're just being hopeful without being realistic. I've seen that over and over and, and after you do this for a lot of years, it's crushing. You know. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Evie: So you don't want to be crushed, you know, what the joy crushed out of your life because of finances. 


    So, you know, figuring out how to do things, realistically is important. And also art tends to be what we would call a tournament theory. Very few people make a lot of money and they're all at the top. Right? So it's as thin at the top, but. Megabucks and often with painting too, you have to be dead. Like that's not really helpful, right? You want to enjoy your life. So again, you know, figuring out how to do what you want to do. And it requires, some thought that it's more than just. 


    with our, we didn't, we're not making a fortunate with our books. Like we did, we didn't hit the market, like Nudge or Freakonomics where they became mega bestsellers, right? We came after them and they had publishers that gave them lots of resources and push and tours. So I, you know, I'm never going to make money as a writer. I didn't even consider myself a writer, a writer, someone who has to write every day. I have friends who do that. I just wrote two books because I had messages I wanted to get out. 


    But writing is a different breed. They're a different group. And a lot of them have made no money at writing. A lot of my writer, friends, they all are prof's or, or have other jobs because art seems to be there's a layer. There's a lot of people who produce beauty and beauty is different to different people that it's hard to make a living at it. And so you have to be smart. Yeah. And I find it's hard to be smart by yourself. You really need a partner to someone who is going to tell you the truth. 


    Megan: Yeah. So valuable. 


    Friend: It's so good. I think a lot of our listeners will resonate with that on the, on the creative business side, you know, it's. Yeah. I like that. Um, scaffolding analogy as well. Megan, I think that's really nice. Can we spend another couple minutes on the art market if possible? Just to sort of help us with a language or an approach I will put my hand up and say, I have no idea what happens in the art room. 


    like you said, like you don't make money until you're dead and the collectors make more than the artists and the, you know, then you have non fungible things now. And like, I just don't like, does it pay the bills to be in a museum? Like what is happening? How is that? should art be priced and how is it priced? I'm so confused. 


    Evie: There's two things in economics one is called normative economics, where you actually make statements about what ought to be. And then there's positive economics, which is. Can you test it and prove it, you know? So it's, it's got facts that says, you know, if this happens, the price will go up 20% or whatever, and then you go see, did the price go up 22%? 


    Yes. So our economists are not great at normative statements. We don't like to say what ought to be. We just say, this is what it is. So if we see a piece of art going for multimillion dollars, it's because there are investors or buyers who value it at that. And normally with art, especially when a person's since dead the supply is now limited, right? They're not going to be making any more art. So we would say that that's an inelastic supply. There's no more coming. And so if suddenly buyers want to buy it, it's just going to drive up the price. So whenever you see pieces that have high prices is because you've got people competing for it. And somehow it has now been viewed as valuable. And why people view it as valuable is because they do Whether they should think it's valuable or not think it's valuable as economists, we go, we're not here to tell you what you want to think is beautiful. But if enough people think something's beautiful, the price is going up. So in terms of art, normally even with most products, uh, inventors for instance, are like artists, but of a different nature. They're not often the ones making money off. Right. So, and, and the ones who are got partners who were on the other side of the fence that help them to work together to protect interests and so forth. And also markets are based on trust. When people talk about the market, they make it sound like it's this cold thing, but when buyers and sellers come together, there's a sense of trust. I want to give you my real thing and I want to trust that you're going to pay me, right? And that you're paying me with something, that I can use. 


    So we have a whole system of trust, usually in exchanges. What's maybe happened is now we have more global exchanges. We have exchanges that are guaranteeing. So you are willing to give them your credit card. if someone pays you a PayPal, someone is guaranteeing that you're not going to get ripped off. 


    If you buy this piece of art, it'll get reversed and all of that. So I think that's increased global markets and trust. that's why artists may want to, they just have to create a demand for their art. it. 


    Friend: Yeah, I've been reading a little bit about how some of the galleries have been essentially playing with supply to force demand upright. So they'll take these new artists and say, only doing. There will only ever be 10 of this collection. And then it will be done and so it's like this churn through of here's a hot artist, here's the 10 items sell boom onto the next artist limited, you know, limited supply limited supply. To me that seems a little artificial, but if your goal is to maximize your income as an artist, it's one way to do it without dying. 


    Evie: Absolutely. I, yeah, absolutely. I mean, if there are fewer of them and people decide that they like your art and there's only 10, you can, it's like the housing market right now. We're having bidding wars where 20 people are bidding on a house. So once you have a limited supply and you have lots of buyers, you will have multiple people bidding and raising the price. 


    So it's a smart strategy this is why, you know, paintings usually sell for more than a limited edition print, which is sell more for a mass produced print. 


    Megan: Right? 


    Friend: Right. 


    Evie: You're trying to actually the quantity so that prices can go up. 


    Megan: As a prolific artist, I have a hard time with this. Honestly, I'm really prolific. I have infinite energy for painting. So I have to really consider that. 


    I mean, I don't have infinite energy for everything. Right. So it has to balance out. I really have been examining this topic or where you say it's like a supply and demand issue, right? 


    Like you don't want to have too much inventory. And it's funny when I have less inventory on my website, it equals more inquiries. 


    Evie: Yeah. 


    Megan: but it's like such a mind game. 


    Friend: Yeah. because if, if you, if we go back to the Julia Cameron world, that's all about producing, like just flowing and being prolific. And so you get this messaging as an artist saying, you need to produce, produce, like, write all the pages and paint all the paintings. And then from a business standpoint, don't. 


    Megan: like don't or be prolific, but don't be public about all of it. And I'm learning that from my friend here, my anonymous patron of the arts, because I love to share I'm an extrovert with a capital E X T R O like I am. So I want to tell everyone all the things, but it's like, you don't have to. 


    Evie: No. And the thing is, it's not paint because you love it. That's true. And then you might want to go through it and curate it and go with which of these are the most marketable and only show those. 


    Megan: Yes. 


    Friend: All right, last question for you for me. And then we'll, we'll save some time for Megan and her wonderful questions. I don't want to become known as just someone who only talks about how to get more money and you know, all about the, the earning. I'm more interested in helping with literacy, you know, financial literacy and, and you know, how money flows both ways. 


    And so I'd like to understand, from people who are also generous with their money, you know, giving of funds, where that comes from, you know, I know you're part of a giving community, a generous church community. So the question for you is, does giving away money. Fit into some kind of a rational economic system or financial management for individuals? 


    Evie: Sure. Yeah. Yeah, Well, the thing is, this is what we think. They're trying to be as happy as they possibly can given their constraints. That's what microeconomics is. How do people be as happy as they possibly can given their financial or given their constraints, whether it's time or, you know, financial resources and part of that, we call it utility. 


    So I'm maximizing utility subject to a budget constraint. That's what we would say in a technical sense. And human beings are social people and it makes us happy to see other people do well. So when you are a generous person, you're just saying I'm willing to pay because it makes me happy that I'm giving that you are happy. 


    You are now part of my utility function. And families are like that. We want our children to be happy. Why would parents, you know, leave massive inheritances for their children when they could have spent every dime in their life and had a great time they do it because their children are part of their utility function. 


    So it is completely rational to want it, but it just depends on what makes you happy. 


    Megan: I love that answer. 


    Friend: Yeah, I love that. I've never thought of it that way. 


    Evie: Yeah, people can be happy giving money away. So when I give money, I, um, there's a, there's an interesting verse in the Bible says. The Lord loves a cheerful giver, you know? So when you give cheerfully, it's because you are happy, you know, you celebrate the giving and if you don't, if it doesn't make you happy, which is why I review my charities from time to time and go, are they doing what I hope they're doing? 


    And if I find out they're doing things and I go, Ooh, not so happy about their, you know, Not nice people that I stopped giving. I stopped giving to them so that's why I think monitoring your charities isn't a bad thing because sometimes they've changed over time and maybe you've changed over time. 


    Like what makes you happy could change? So I think giving is, is part of, a robust society where people actually get happy. Because other people are in their lives. 


    Friend: I like that. 


    Megan: such a wonderful financial goal to, to have, as you hopefully do learn to manage money over time. It's like put in that percentage of how much you want to be generous with as part of like a budget. Right. It's just a nice way of, I mean, some churches do this, but also just like, as an individual non secularly, like it's an important way to think. 


    It's interesting. Okay. Let's chat art real quick. 


    Evie: Okay. 


    Megan: You've spent your career doing something that I would consider quite technical, analytical. How do you stay creative in your career or just your personal life? 


    Evie: Well, I think for me, creative is, I don't know how I would stay creative. It's not necessarily what I produce. It's in my willingness to be friends with a very wide group of people. I think in some ways my creativity has to do with how I on purpose, try to have friends who are creative 


    Megan: I love that. 


    Evie: Because I don't have it. but I have a whole group of people in my world who are either very smart or very creative and very interesting. So I think that that's how ideas spark ideas. And so that's kind of where I go but, you know, I wish I was, I wish I could play an instrument and maybe in my retirement, I might, we have a piano here. 


    My oldest son took piano lessons or I can't draw worth beans, but I have a friend who's a fantastic artist and she does these drawing courses. And I think, well, maybe I could learn, you know, but I don't have a lot of confidence that I'm going to be good at this because, you know, I've tried a few things and realized, Hmm. 


    Megan: Let me tell you though, that you two are telling me the creative to, have a little more confidence in my economic skills. So I will tell you it's, just, we have to all try something. So like you're trying with all these friendships, it's like, I'm not a great at yoga. I'm not that great. Right. But I've gotten better because I try, like, it's like we have to train ourselves to think this way. 


    It's it's. just doing a lot of random tasks, you know, hoping for nothing hoping you'll see maybe that you grow up, but over time. So it's not like about the output, like you mentioned. 


    Evie: Well, one of the things that I had happened is my, I have a friend who's an artist. And I have bought lots of her work. She says, oh, you're one of my best patrons. I go, yeah, I just by art. 


    And I've made it a plan not to buy mass produced stuff. So I buy original work now. So my house is filled with as much as I can, I try to buy original art. So that way I have supported an artist and I have something unique and beautiful in my house. And I only had that because she was my friend and I was trying to support her. Right. So I think what happens often. Anything in our life and generosity is your friends influence you? 


    So I have another friend he's the head of a charity. So when I had my 60th birthday, I said, no gifts. I had threw a huge party. I said, this is essentially my 60th birthday, my retirement party and my funeral only I'm here. 


    So I had speeches and the whole deal, and I said, instead of gifts, I want you to give to this charity, which funds a micro-financing to women in poor. That was my charity. I wanted women to be promoted and I want an, a tied to finance and it was getting loans to women so that they could support their families. And it wasn't charity. Now it was, they had the dignity of work. But that happened because I had this friend who is the CEO of that organization. So I think you need to curate friends, friends are really important. 


    Friend: And that's what we're, you know, that's, I can say the same thing, Evie, that I am starting to learn about art because of Megan and some of our joint friends who are teaching me and pushing me to be like, you can't just look at numbers all day. 


    Megan: I mean, it goes in the end versus true to you have to have it like, uh, the model UN uh, friendships, right? Like it's, it can't all be homogenous because you're, I mean, then you're just in a little echo chamber of your own thoughts. Like that's not fun. You have to have input that's interesting or inspiring or makes you a better person. 


    That's the whole point. Right? 


    Evie: And I think what happens for me is I have this sort of framework now. My framework is my friends have to be diverse. My Facebook, I don't delete people who have opinions that are different than mine. I'm trying really hard not to be in an echo chamber because I feel like it tells me how the world is thinking, forces me to be more creative. 


    And so I just feel like be open to people. Who are very different than you finding out what you like about them. And, it isn't always that they're identical to you. So there's something that you'll share, but it doesn't have to be what you do for a living. And so I'm very fortunate and my oldest son actually said this to me. 


    He goes, you know, one thing, mom is you have a lot of great friends. And I said, yeah, but I look at it. I work at friendship. 


    Friend: Yeah. There's a quote from Lincoln and it's him saying, you know, I don't like that gentleman very much. I should get to know, him better. I think that's, you know, a little bit that like pick people that you maybe wouldn't have a natural connection with or wouldn't understand and get to know them better. 


    Evie: Sometimes friendship happens just in, in just having a familiarity. So I've become friends with people from church. Who I would never work with because. They don't work at my work. So I have friends from work. And then I did some thinking about creating a book group. So I created a book group that gave me different friends. 


    And then we had this other group of friends and that had children all at the same time. And so I think, when you value friendship and you put energy into friendship, that changes what you're going to be interested. Because your friends will bring interesting things to the table and you'll go, oh, so I've been to many art shows. 


    Let me tell you why, because I'm an artist, but because I have a friend who's an artist. 


    Megan: I mean as a woman in the arts, I will first say thank you for collecting original art. you have no idea the impact that that makes on any artist's life. So that's huge. the confidence alone, when someone buys an original painting, I mean, I'm, I'm seven years into this and I'm still shocked every time. Right? I'm like, you really want this in your house? Like, it's just, it's shocking and wonderful, but, um, just the ability to, to see the value in something. As we mentioned before, it has variable value, you know, it's, it is a leap of faith to buy original art. So thank you for supporting the arts. It's 


    very nice of you 


    Evie: I just think beauty matters and friendship matters. And I remember my friend, the one who's the artist said, why are you buying all this stuff? When if you take a look, there's, there's starting artists who are selling stuff for the same price as you're paying for that. And it's original. And so why are you putting in anything that has been mass produced in your house? 


    And so I went, okay. I stand rebuked. and at that point on, I made it a point that I only buy original art. 


    Megan: that's such a good perspective. 


    Evie: yeah. 


    Megan: of course it's self-serving but I do really agree wholeheartedly. 


    Evie: Uh, I don't think it's a self-serving I think it's a perspective that people who aren't artists don't, think about. 


    Megan: Yeah, well, it's just like supporting any small business. It really matters. It matters on a very micro level. Right. But it can impact people's personal lives and the way that they use their it's a network, right. It's like ripple effect of who you support and how they, you know, work in society. Like it's a huge impact. 


    Okay. One quick closing thing that we do on this podcast. We're going to go down to the rapid fire section, which is my brain's way of thinking. Are you ready? 


    Evie: Sure 


    Megan: Okay. Dogs or cats? 


    Evie: Dogs. 


    Megan: Yeah. I could tell Tik TOK or Instagram? 


    Evie: Instagram. 


    Megan: Thank you. Also tea or coffee? 


    Evie: Coffee. 


    Megan: Me too. Like during this episode. 


    Meanwhile, I'm times in infinite resource. Okay. Wine or a cocktail? 


    Evie: White. 


    Megan: Ooh. 


    Friend: all year white, no matter what? All right. 


    Megan: Oh my gosh. You Canadians are wild, Amsterdam or New York? 


    Evie: Well, I've never been to Amsterdam, so I don't know. I've been to New York. I think. I, would go either place. I don't know. 


    Megan: Okay. Novel or non-fiction? 


    Evie: Non-fiction. 


    Megan: Duh, what was your worst subject in school? 


    Evie: Physics. 


    Megan: Interesting. It requires math. So I would love to follow up what, but I can't. What did you think our friend here, who you knew as a young little one would be when she grew up? 


    Evie: I wasn't predicting. I don't, I didn't have any thoughts about what I thought she would be. 


    Megan: That's a fair answer. You were just hoping she would nanny her children for more time. 


    Evie: I knew she was moving beyond that. 


    Megan: I mean, you find a good babysitter, I can relate. Like you're like don't ever leave me. 


    Evie: well, the thing is, this is all part of your rapid fire, but when she was babysitting for me, she had such a good time with the kids that I would come home. My house would be like chaos, and I'm a neat person. So I would walk in and then immediately go into stress. Like I needed to clean everything up before I could settle. 


    So finally I. I can't do this. You're going to have to start tidying up before I get home. So then she advised, vented a game with my kids called vacuum tag. So they would vacuum with each other. I didn't care. I just came home and the place wasn't like, cause I'm a very tidy person. And I, it was like, I, it would be like walking into a hoarder's place. Like I was in shock. So. 


    Friend: We had fun. I mean, we've got everything out. 


    Megan: This is shocking news. 


    Friend: oh, I am a total total mess. 


    Evie: Yeah. So that's why I, you know, it worked out well because we, I just was able to express, I think we have to do something a little different here. 


    Megan: Please start vacuuming. Okay. This way you need a full follow-up episode on like our younger selves, but more on that later. Okay. Your favorite artist living or past? 


    Evie: Oh, Brenda L Murray. 


    She has such interesting art. I'd love her. 


    Megan: Well, I can't wait to find out more. And then our last question of the rapid fire section is your favorite female economy or on Is that 


    Evie: famous female economists. I don't actually have a favorite, favorite economists, 


    Megan: that's okay. 


    Evie: really hard to think of a female versus like, I don't have a favorite economists at all. 


    Megan: Our friends here is Janet Yellen 


    Evie: Yeah, she was the fed chair. 


    Friend: She's, like the RBG. 


    she's like Ruth Bader Ginsburg. 


    Evie: yeah. 


    Friend: So she's, she's cool for. 


    Evie: She's very cool. Uh, but I guess I just like ideas, I don't necessarily need to know who thought of the idea. And, she worked more in sort of the real world, so to speak So she's not sitting with. You know, creating new ideas of a lot of economists that I find really interesting are people who thought of the world differently and it forward in, terms of thought. 


    Friend: You've got some great profiles of economists in the book, Cocktail Party Economics. I like those sections. So I'm sure there's some there that will be of interest to 


    Evie: thing is it's been dominated by men. Like there's only one woman who's won a Nobel prize and she was kind of a sociologist economist. 


    Megan: it was sort of a trick question. I'm sorry to end on a tricky 


    note. 


    Evie: no problem. I I have not actually a celebrity 


    follower. So when people say to me, you know, what famous person would you like to meet? I can't think of anyone I want to meet. 


    I don't care that people are famous. Like, I really don't care that people are famous. I don't go, oh, I saw, you know, we have a friend between the two of us who actually met the queen, you know? Well, that's great. I'm glad you've got the queen. Perfect. But I don't necessarily want to meet the queen. 


    I don't care. And so I don't find myself impressed with, celebrity. It just doesn't interest me. 


    Friend: You can see, we have that in common. I think you could see like Evie taught me a few things along the way, you know? 


    Megan: She rubbed off on you a little bit. Well, thank you so much for being here today with us. I really enjoyed your answers. A lot of the ways you described studying as an economist is not how I would've these questions. 


    I really learned a lot. Thank you so much. where can people find you on the internet? 


    Evie: I asked, my publisher and, basically my books now are. the buy them at the university bookstore at the University of Guelph. So it's no longer sort of on platforms it's local to the University of Guelph. And if you go to the bookstore, they actually sell the books I think are e-books, so they're moving away from physical books. So anyway, if you go to the University of Guelph G U E L P H, which is in how everyone thinks Guelph is spelled and you go to the bookstore on their website and you've just put in my name and, Cocktail Party Economics and the other one is Dinner Party Economics. 


    Friend: We'll link. 


    Evie: Yeah. That's the only way to really get my book. 


    Megan: And then our last question for you, the former teacher in me always asks us at the end of every episode, do you have a homework assignment for our listeners? So something we can work on, follow up on or something to challenge us regarding art or finance? 


    Evie: I would just, if your audience is mostly artists, just get a friend, who's an accounting type, you know, get a friend, get somebody who can, you know, you can bounce ideas because you can't learn things in a heartbeat. You have to learning takes time. You know, and so it's kind of develop your friend portfolio. That's what I would suggest. 


    Friend: And I think that works both ways. I would say that to my women in finance as well, get a friend who's an artist. 


    Evie: Yes, I think that that's a good way to start. It's a small thing, but it's a, that's a good way to expand your world by having a friend, because then their ideas are incarnate, right? They're in a human form and you get to bounce off someone who thinks differently than you and learn from them. 


    Friend: Love it. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks Evie. 


    Evie: No problem. 


    Friend: Um, so Megan, that wasn't so bad. 


    Megan: Invigorated. I'm not kidding. I feel like I want to go take her class, 


    Friend: Yeah, me too. You could probably 


    Megan: like audit. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: I can't imagine what I would, be like in the chat, just cause I'm a little distracting, but I, I would love her to teach me the ways of thinking about money that she just described to us because it wasn't stressful at all. 


    Friend: I also like how she was willing to talk with us about the art market and you know, what goes into some demand and pricing, you know, some idea gives us some things to think about. I don't think 


    to be economist, but I I think it's good for us to be challenged and to, have a new perspective and maybe put a new filter on things. 


    Megan: Also it's important for people like me who are afraid of a certain topic, which shall not be named to fully engage with humans who are real people and know they're also normal humans, you know, it's like, we don't need to distinguish each other with like these titles, right? Like we're all pretty much very similar and just choose different paths just pursue for our own reasons. 


    Friend: Yeah. Also already aced the homework. 


    Megan: I mean, 


    Friend: We're doing it. We didn't pay her or ask her to say that she just came out with that, like go make friends with, 


    Megan: opposite human. 


    I liked that advice though. And I liked her like circle of friendship thing, which is really a life goal of mine. Honestly, when she talked about having opposite friends, I was like, oh, I love that so much because no one wants to have the same people around them all the time, or the same as yourself. 


    Friend: Isn't it? Yeah. It's not very interesting. 


    Megan: She's truly a patron of the arts for a friend. 


    Friend: Yeah. Awesome. All right. Well that brings us to the end of this episode. 


    Thanks so much to Eddie for teaching us about thanks so much to every here, making economics a little more accessible for us. 


    until 


    Megan: then, this is Megan of Art by Megan 


    Friend: Until when Megan? 


    Megan: Until then, like literally until you hear my voice again? 


    Friend: until you hear her voice, it is reassuring to know she is Megan. 


    Megan: I literally just like skipped part of the. 


    Friend: I think Until next time it's great. When we don't know what is 


    Megan: Until then like, instead of like, goodbye, 


    Friend: Goodbye. 


    Megan: Just see you, like see you when, see you another time. It's just so abstract. 


    Friend: same time next week. 


    Megan: Sure. Yeah. 


    Friend: All right. Let's keep 


    Megan: 8:00 AM on Friday. 


    Friend: that note to my employer. That is not when we're recording. 


    Megan: No, no, that's just when the apple podcasts as we live. 


    Friend: Oh, yes, that's true. That is when it 


    Megan: Yeah. So until then, 


    Friend: until then, and her friend, your patron of the arts 


    Megan: wishing you more art.

Third and Fourth
Episode 008 - Artist in Residence: Amanda Michele Brown

Abstract watercolor artist Amanda Michele Brown is our artist in residence this week. She breaks down all the stereotypes (aced accounting in college, has a highly organized work process, files her taxes early), makes us laugh until we cry, and assigns a double portion of art theory homework.

Listen, follow and review us on your go-to podcast directory: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | Google Podcasts

Show Notes

  • Artist in Residence: Amanda Michele Brown

    Follow Amanda on Instagram

    Check out Amanda’s website

    Book Culture Care by Makoto Fujimura

    The recent Lauren Pearce exhibit was at the Adelson Galleries.

    Artist Laxmi Hussain

    Artist Shirazeh Houshiary

    Artist Kathryn MacNaughton

    Book My Side of the Mountain

    Artist Wassily Kandinsky

    Brooklyn restaurant Claro

    Homework:

    Read The $12m Stuffed Shark by Don Thompson

    Read The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction by Walter Benjamin (1936)

    Rate, follow, like, or share The Art$ with a friend.

    We would love to hear from you! Email us your questions and ideas at podcast at artbymegan dot com

  • Friend: Episode eight, Amanda, the Artist. 


    Welcome to The Arts, a brand new podcast about art and money. I've spent my career managing at some of the world's largest financial institutions. So I can't tell you my name, but trust me, talking about money is my jam. 


    Megan: And I'm Megan, I'm an artist and a teacher. And now co-host of this amazing podcast. We're having this conversation because we came to a realization. We have no idea how the other person spends her workday. 


    Friend: Or her money. So let's chat about it. 


    Megan: On today's show. We were talking about all things, art and creativity with our very first Artist in Residence, Amanda Michelle. 


    Friend: Yes. We love Amanda. She was there when we floated the idea out loud for the first time. She's the first person that we were like, "Hey, we have this crazy idea. What do you think?" 


    Megan: She heard it first, like literally. 


    Friend: Yeah And she did not discourage us. So here we are. 


    Megan: For that alone she's our guest today. Okay. Friend let's do this, but first The Scene. The Scene. 


    So friend, what's trending in the arts this week? 


    Friend: Well, you've been reading all the books, so I decided to pick up a book again. First one, I tried didn't have much for this audience. So the book I've just finished is called Culture Care by Makoto Fujimura. And, it's about how we reconnect with beauty and, care for our culture, which might be obvious from the title it's about cultural stewardship. 


    Yeah, 


    as a community, he, he makes some parallels to, um, environmental care and environmental stewardship. something similar, you know, how do we feed our cultures soul with beauty, creativity, and generosity. It was really nice. 


    Megan: It sounds peaceful. 


    Friend: it was peaceful. 


    And so is his art. I wanted it to read you a quick thing here that I thought was relevant. " Often business practice and art making are seen as things at opposing poles on a spectrum of pragmatics and creativity. On one hand business discipline requires convergent decision-making narrowing down to a particular focus and a bottom line in a highly organized system. 


    And artists on the other hand are divergent thinkers. And they often seem to thrive on uncertainty and are resourceful enough to survive on very little. I recently had lunch with a business leader. This business leader spoke of how bankers after the Lehman brothers collapsed now have to justify their work. 


    Many bankers became bankers for stability and high income. They are willing to work hard for that, but they previously never had to justify their choice, but now bankers asked, " what do you do" at a party will have to defend their continuing in that profession. I am used to "defending my decision to be an artist in this pragmatic world. 


    If a banker now has to do the same thing, it occurred to me that a banker and an artist can now have a more meaningful discussion on how they can help each other towards thriving and a vision for rehumanized culture." 


    Isn't that so good? 


    Megan: Oh, my gosh is a genius. 


    Friend: I know. "In such a conversation, the language of care for both business and culture is not only desired, but necessary for all people." Boom. Isn't that great. 


    It was a really good read. We'll link to it in the show notes. 


    Megan: I love him. 


    Friend: Wait, you did, you know him? 


    Megan: No, I don't know him but I love him now. 


    I'm like, you know me and Makoto no, but I, I tend to love he's Japanese. I'm guessing. I tend to love the work of Japanese writers. Sometimes people say my art has like an Asian influence, which I personally do not. I've never studied there anywhere. I've never traveled to Asia. Any part of it, I am not Asian, but I do not understand why I'm so like philosophically connected to a lot of their words. It's very interesting to me. 


    Friend: That is 


    Megan: It's very peaceful. Yeah. Organic, you know? And so I see that in like some of my paintings. 


    Friend: I think their use of metals too. From what I've seen, 


    Megan: the metallics and that whole concept of like repairing broken things with the metal. 


    Oh my gosh. We could go on a whole Asian art thing. 


    Friend: Episode 23. 


    Megan: Asian art with our guest Makoto Fujimura okay. I am not reading books because I run out of time. 


    That's my hot take. It was going to happen eventually. 


    Friend: You've had like 40 books in a row. 


    Megan: Well, I love books, but I'd also read in my Artist's Way that I needed to stop reading to escape doing things, which apparently is a thing artists do. And I was like, Julia Cameron, you bite your tongue. So I've been researching the work of some women artists. Okay. One of them is one of my favorites. Her name's Lauren Pierce. Her work is breathtaking. It's literally glowing. I've never seen it in person, but she just had a gorgeous show in Palm Beach at Adelson Galleries. 


    And her work is actually part of the collection of Alicia Keys, which we talked about in episode one. She's incredible. We'll link to her in the show notes. She's also very lovely Instagram friends. So I think she's a great human, which we love. I mean, she's, she is, I can almost guess it. The second artist I'm loving is a British artist artist, which has happened. My dentures fell out British artist Laxmi Hussain, try that, go ahead. You try. 


    Friend: Uh, British artist Laxmi Hussain, no, it's not, it's not possible. I have to take my Invisalign out. 


    Megan: I'm like I could never keep mine in. Okay. So anyways, I love this excerpt from her bio Laxmi has been drawing for as long as she can remember as a child in London, she wouldn't lose hours after school with sketching on the counter, in her dad's corner shop, but it is only since the birth of her first child that Laxmi has turned her passion into a profession reinspired by the impressible, joy and creativity shown by her children. She picked up the pencil once again, finding artwork to be a valuable means of reclaiming her own identity, amid the emotional blurring of motherhood. I mean, whoa, like get on this podcast. I'm calling London. I just love that she is like carving out a space for herself in, in world where that's rather revolutionary. 


    Friend: Yeah, lovely. And what's her style? 


    Megan: She does these beautiful cobalt, blue drawings of bodies. I'm obsessed with their like imperfect postpartum bodies from all angles, which is a real commentary on women, right? Like an unflattering angle, you know, like, Ooh, imagine this, but they're also abstracted enough that sometimes you can't quite tell. They're beautiful. I'm obsessed with cobalt blue too. So there's a whole love affair there. 


    Friend: Yes. 


    Megan: I also have, you know, become her Instagram friend and she is quite lovely. So let's get these ladies on here. 


    Friend: You are welcome here. We would love to chat with. 


    Megan: We want to talk more. 


    Friend: Wow. That's really cool. I love hearing about new artists or new to me, especially a female artists. and I will take it upon myself to go on the interweb. Let's see if I can find some 


    archival content. 


    Megan: Yes. Please dig deep. 


    Friend: All right. Speaking of our favorite female artists. We have a great guest today, really excited to have, our very first, as you said, artist in residence besides you, Megan, are you an artist in residence as well? 


    Megan: I live here. 


    Friend: Yes. I mean, you're just here, all the time. Every time I log in. Yes. 


    Megan: She's always on Zoom. 


    Friend: By the way, what does that mean? Artists in residence? 


    Megan: it's a funny thing because it's actually. So you, you go to a residency sometimes if you're an artist and you want to do that, which is basically like, sometimes you're going to stipend and sometimes you pay to go live somewhere that you normally don't live in. Usually pretty like sparse conditions, but like beautiful. 


    Like you're in like a cabin in the woods or you're in like you're on the beach alone. Right. It's all very like, it's formulaic. You're not like at the Ritz Carlton and Manhattan is what I'm saying. You know, like you're, you're alone with your thoughts with other artists sometimes, or, you know, a couple other artists, maybe not a bunch, but the mission is to like, remove yourself from your current living situation and live somewhere else and work entirely on a new series of art. I've never done one. 


    Friend: You should, well, you sort sorta went to Spain. 


    Megan: I mean, I have enough ideas. I just need them a different residence. 


    I mean, the problem isn't ideas is the problem is like a place in the woods. 


    Friend: Well, I could, I could get you a place in the woods. It might be cold though. 


    Megan: I don't know if I want to be alone in the 


    Friend: Yeah, I was going to say.. 


    Megan: We 


    Friend: say, 


    okay. 


    Megan: let's go. 


    Friend: So, we've plucked Amanda out of her, usual spot in Brooklyn and on Pinterest. And we've brought her here and it is sparse, but we are happy to have her. 


    Megan: Yes. All right. Look at us. Just chatty as ever. All right. Episode eight done, oh, I forgot. Hold on. I was ready for Evie of the economist, which makes me giggle because there's these books called, uh, you know, like ADA twist scientist and Iggy Peck architect. 


    Amanda, the artist. 


    Friend: Amanda the artist. 


    Yes, there we go. 


    Megan: Mic drop. 


    Friend: The Main Exhibit. Yay. We're super excited today to be joined by our artist friend, Amanda, Michelle. 


    Amanda: Thanks. So excited to be here. 


    Friend: Yeah, we're excited to have you thank you for agreeing to this crazy idea. We just admire you so much as an artist. We know you can be doing many, many other things with your time today. So we're going to jump right in to the Q and A, uh, we tend to divide up our questions based on our own... expertise, frames of reference, if you will. Sides of the fence. I will ask you some, some money type questions. Not it. Won't be too scary. Don't worry. And then Megan will ask you some of her Megan questions. Sound good? 


    Amanda: Sounds good. I just did my taxes, so I'm ready. 


    Friend: Oh wow. Early bird. 


    Megan: Oh, my God. Did you hear our reactions? I was like, oh, and Friend was like, Ooh, 


    that's it. That's the whole podcast. 


    Friend: Someone else did it. Does theirs early, like me I've I've already done 


    Amanda: I will just live in terror if I don't do it quickly. 


    Friend: That's good. 


    All right. So let's start with your bio. Can you give us a little more on your career background and you know, why New York? 


    Amanda: Yeah. So, for people who don't know me, I am an abstract watercolor artists and I currently live in Brooklyn. but I not from here originally, I was born in Little Rock Arkansas and was raised in the Milwaukee area of Wisconsin. And didn't move to New York until about 11 years ago. So after I got my BFA and I well, I lived in London for a little bit. That's like, kind of like a side story, but then. 


    Friend: I didn't know that 


    Megan: That's so cool. 


    Amanda: Yeah. so I had an externship from, at the end of my BFA. I have an arts administration degree as well. So to like get that degree, you had to like actually work. so I worked in a gallery in Notting Hill. 


    Friend: Ah, 


    ah, 


    Amanda: by the travel bookshop from the movie, not right next door to him. I had never seen that movie. 


    When I, when I lived there either and people would be asking me like, where's this travel bookshop? And I was like, yeah. so yeah, that was fun. Highly recommend. 


    Friend: No wonder we get along. Cause you're basically like an honorary Canadian based on where where you grew up. 


    Amanda: Yeah, definitely. 


    Friend: Canada. 


    Amanda: If any time, my Wisconsin accent dips in, let me know. 


    Megan: It's here. flagged it. It comes in and out. It's okay. We're all from places you can't avoid it. 


    Amanda: I also have some like random words that are Southern, but That's just what happens when you're from multiple places. but anyway, so I moved to, New York, my now husband, then boyfriend was here. So we had met in college. He came to New York for grad school at NYU. And I was like, I guess I still like this guy I'll follow him. 


    Megan: It's very romantic. 


    Amanda: Yes. but what I did move here, I only had, after living in London, I had about $200 in my pocket. And no job, just, uh, just Matt. So, very patient soul. Uh, we had a roommate which was great shout out to our old roommate. But yeah, it was finding a way in New York finding a way to like keep making art after school is already tricky. Anybody who's gone to art school, who's had to like figure out what to do now that they don't have a studio space. And somebody telling you that all you have to do is make art. 


    Megan: Like infinite time. 


    Amanda: Yeah. Right. That transition is already rough, but having that transition with not really having a job is even more so, and being in a new place. So, 


    Friend: Brave. You're a brave soul. 


    Amanda: Oh, thanks. That's actually what brought me to how I make art now, which I never did watercolors in school at all. Like I was always kind of like more of like an oil painter, a printmaker working very large. But you can't really do that in a tiny New York apartment. So I switched to watercolors in order to not suffocate and die from fumes 


    and brave 


    that's me right there. 


    Megan: And practical though. I mean, I'm really, truly, you shouldn't be painting in that small space. So like 


    Amanda: Yes. 


    Megan: warning for listeners. 


    Amanda: Yes. You need more than just an open window into a back alley in order to get proper ventilation. 


    Friend: All right. So thank you for that. That's very interesting. I would like to tell you. Two of the many reasons why we love you and admire you and the first is that you're hilarious. And that just like has to be, it has to be the leading. And this show is very open to people of humor. we're very welcoming of that. 


    So thank you. And, secondly, you know, and really more importantly more to the point, we've seen you over the years work really hard to pursue something that you're passionate about and, have not given up. And so hopefully we'll get to talk to you about that a little bit today. You know, how did you come to this point because this is full-time right? Like you're, you're a full-time professional artist. How did you get there and how many times did you have to not give up? 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Amanda: Yeah. So I think I want to also be clear that I, I split my time. So I am, this kind of goes back to a little bit about like, not having a job when it, when you're also also have an art degree, people will not understand what you do and so I would get asked repeatedly, can you design a logo for me? 


    Can you do this? Can you do that? Megan's closing your eyes and acknowledgement. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Amanda: But eventually I was like, well, geez. If this is what people want me to do, I'm just going to learn how to do this and make money doing that. So I can keep up with my art. So after having like jobs doing that like where I have to like sit at a desk. 


    Eventually I got to the place in my graphic design that I am now freelance. So I have that like freedom with my graphic design that I can also work on my art at the same time. So I have if I need to go off to a residency for a certain amount of time, I can just like, you know, let my clients know or not take on new clients. 


    it's, gotten to like, kind of that perfect point where they like feed off of each other. So I don't feel bad when I spend way more on art supplies. I'm selling and paintings because I'm like doing the branding for somebody next month. And so I, I wouldn't necessarily, it's weird. I do still think of myself as a full-time artist because graphic design is a form of art, but I think it's not. 


    There's this idea that people have that, like, if you are an artist you wake up in the morning, you have a tea, you, you do your morning pages and stare 


    Megan: Oh, 


    Friend: Oh, she's got your number. 


    Megan: I'm like feeling a little bit of shade being thrown in my direction right now, but I do my morning pages in the carpool pickup lines, so fine. 


    Amanda: That also works. 


    Megan: No, but I know what you're saying. It's like, there's this like very, romanticized version of what we do for a living. And it's quite scrappy in reality, you're scrappy. 


    That's why we like each other, you know, you're willing to, um, invent things and like make up a job as you go along that pays the bills. But B like works for your creative flow. You know, it has to do both. hard. 


    Amanda: Yes. Yeah. And I would say for the first few years after school and first few years in New York, I would just say yes to everything. 


    Like, are you going to pay me cool, 


    Megan: Yeah. cause it's like, there's no other option, like first year living in New York. So that's expensive, but two you're trying to subsidize something that is a dream without it becoming this like albatross where you're like, I can't afford this dream. 


    Amanda: Yeah, definitely. And I think also you can think of that creatively too. Like I think sometimes people end up putting so much of their creative energy into their art, making that they can't see their whole lives in a creative way. Like you're not just making art when you're sitting down and making art. All of the experiences, even from your work, from raising a family, whenever you're doing that all comes back to your work. So I think that this idea that like, I'm not making art, if I'm not making art is very 


    Megan: It's very suffocating. And it's I think, before we like really deep dive into this and I go on the go full tirade, I do think it's like gendered, you know, like women are expected to do everything well, meanwhile, I just read the Pablo Picasso memoir written by his ex wife. And like, let's just say homeboy was not doing it much well, besides making art. He had everything else taken care of for him. 


    Friend: By her, or did they have help? 


    Megan: I mean, he had multiple wives at different points. Like all hands were on deck. The dude wasn't even making himself a sandwich, not even the tea or the morning pages, he was just painting, you know? 


    So it's like, of course he was great. He had a ton of time. 


    Amanda: Yeah. 


    Megan: And probably never washed his laundry, you know, like it's just, the logistics were taken care of. Anyways, speaking of logistics, let me get to the actual next question, which is okay. What do you do all day? Describe your day as an artist. 


    Amanda: Yeah. So my work is very process-based, and requires a ton of patience. So the way that I lay out my paintings, it's very much like add a layer, wait, add a layer, wait, and, I go in and I have like these little detail moments that I have to like sit and just work on for hours until my hand wants to fall off. So that really lends itself well to balancing with, my graphic design job. So I'll be able to like, know, stare at a painting for a little bit, do a layer. Go to a meeting with the client, or do my laundry. Ha Pablo Picasso. 


    Friend: No, but you're doing both. Which makes you, I think more impressive. 


    Megan: We're just better. That's the title of the podcast. 


    Amanda: So yeah, I think it's a lot of juggling and figuring out what I want to do next. Like, I, I try to be really organized in like what I have to do which is the opposite of what I also think sometimes people think artists are as like, mostly just, you know, flying by the seat of their pants all the time. 


    Megan: So you preplan a piece, you see it in her brain and then you like paint what's in your brain already. 


    Amanda: Ironically, I don't pre I don't usually preplan pieces unless it's like a commission, if I'm like working on my own, it is very intuitive, but I would say like planning my day around art making. It's very intentional. 


    So it's not like I feel like painting today. And then I like glide into my studio. 


    Megan: that's literally my vibe. So like, this is intriguing to me. 


    Friend: That sounds like Megan, because Megan has described it to me as it's like this flurry of activity and then the thing is done. Whereas, Amanda, it sounds like you're, approach and then retreat. Like you have to come to it. 


    Amanda: It's a slow burn 


    Friend: Is it drying? Is that 


    Amanda: It's drying during yeah. Drying. Or sometimes I'm just looking at it, like, where does this next? 


    Friend: It's incubating. 


    Megan: Well, I do think you are more analytical than me. Like if there's a spectrum of people and Megan is on the far left and, and Friend here is on the far right of analytics, in the middle, right? Like you're, you're kind of like both. 


    Friend: Okay. So we have these, we've made these two graphics. So we have this idea. It means nothing. We made it up. It's just a, give us a, like a reference for where people are thinking about themselves in a couple of different dimensions. But what Megan is saying is that she would place herself far over 


    Megan: Yeah. I'm far far on the creative side. 


    Friend: She's off here where the label is and I'm over here. And then, you know, does that relate at all? We'll only see this as we plot it over time, but does that, do we see any connection then with how we save or spend our money? 


    Amanda: chart? 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Amanda: One good 


    Friend: I'm making one, I'm waking you on. So when people answer us, I place, I moved these hearts and I placed them and then we'll be able to see like do all the bankers end up in the top left and all the artists end up in the right. Like, I don't know, we have a hypothesis, but I would love to be proven wrong. So I think you might be about to blow our scatter chart. 


    Amanda: Yeah. I think I'm a little bit more on the creative expressive side. but not like all the way to the side. And I think saver or splurger is going to be interesting one. Cause I feel like that goes to a lot of family trauma. 


    Friend: I know I'm trying to get therapist to come in and talk to us and be like, why do we have so much problem with money? Like what is happening? Like, can you just generalize some advice for us? 


    Amanda: Yeah. Well, my, my mom was a big spender. Like she loved, she, she grew up really poor, so she like loved to spend money. and it was always kind of like, I do still kind of retain a little bit of her philosophy of like, if you want it enough, you'll make space for it. You'll find a way to pay for it. But my dad was not like that. 


    He was a military brat. Uh, his dad's very like strict about stuff. So he was out like, if you talk to him, we were always on the brink of financial ruin. 


    So. 


    Megan: What a conflicting childhood though, to be like, wait, Are we fine? 


    Amanda: Are we fine? Are we Yeah, so I kind of like, whoosh, I go like back and forth. Some days I'll be like, like right now, I'm kind of in the splurging moment I bought a bidet the other day. I'm like, whatever will make me 


    Friend: Wait, did I just hear you say, "I bought a bidet"? That's 


    Amanda: I did. I bought a bidet. 


    Megan: Cause it's we're at the bidet portion of the pandemic where you really have to treat yourself. 


    Amanda: Honestly the day portion was when toilet paper was, you know? Yeah, low, but I'm going to get on the, bottom part of the graph. 


    Megan: I really feel like you're right in the middle. You're like on the, whatever that access is called, the X, Y does zero, zero, you know? Okay. Look at me with the math, remember like, you're just right there. This is you. You're 50, 50. 


    Amanda: Yeah. I mean, I can, I can go. 


    Friend: You could go. It sounds like you can oscilate a little, so we'll ask you next week and see, and then we'll do an average and you'll land. 


    Megan: Her data is irrelevant is what we're telling you all. 


    Friend: Undetermined. What, what do we think about this one? The way this is just a very simple comfort scale, but we'd like to know who we're dealing with. so I am a nine embrace. I just like love talking about it. To me. It's like fitting all the puzzle pieces. Megan, I think was four. 


    Megan: Not not to flex, 


    Amanda: This is a tough one because like, I don't have, I don't feel like I have a problem talking about money. depends on where it's coming from. Like a lot of times it comes from a place of like 


    ugh money. 


    Megan: I get that. 


    Friend: Is that your, your reaction to it? Like that's how you you're feeling about it. So then you don't want to talk about it? 


    Amanda: Well, I mean, there was a big chunk of time where I didn't have money. And so there's a lot around that of me not liking it from it's really hard when you don't have money to like money. Now I'm starting to have more money. And so I'm starting to. It's a weird, it's weird to transition to be like, oh, money's, money's great when you're making it, but it sucks when you don't have it, you know, it's a real hard conflict, internally. 


    Megan: There's a lot of talk around like investing and women becoming savvy with their money and that's fine, but it's a little entitled, there are a lot of people just scraping by hoping every month to pay the bills, right. Like, I mean, that is very important to mention. 


    Friend: That came up with Kristen the other day as well. And also Megan, when you, when we first talked about this and you were like, oh, I didn't do as good as you like, this is not a 10 as an A, and then one is a fail. Like this is just like, just think about what it is, what it does to you and why, and then maybe, you know, you can do some work to make it a little more comfortable if you feel you need to. 


    But I, I know, and I'll just keep saying. I know that the reason that I'm a nine is a combination of people who have been comfortable talking about it themselves with me, but also like, I don't have to worry about money right now in this I've had times where I haven't been working or where, you know, something happens. So I think it's, it's not just a flat, like, Ooh, 10 is perfect. No, it's like, 9 is a function of where I'm at today and I'm grateful for it. And so maybe because I'm comfortable, I can help other people talk about it, but it doesn't mean that I couldn't slide back down, like something could happen and, you know, I could end up being like, I can't deal right. 


    Megan: It's hard not to tie emotion to money too, because of either childhood, like you mentioned Amanda, or just general lack of confidence and that's deeply rooted in a lot of stuff. It's just, it's hard to separate. So I'm glad I'm practicing, talking with someone neutral about it. So that when I do talk to my husband about the bills, I'm like, I can take a beat and be like, I actually can talk about this. You know, it's like a confidence this is confidence building. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Amanda: Yeah. I'm working really hard on making sure I think of money as a tool because there's so many things that are done with money and with capitalism that feel freaking terrible. And so trying to divorce this thing that we essentially made up, money is made up all of it. Cryptocurrency not withstanding, even money itself, the thing we hold in our hand is just something we've decided we've assigned it value. So like not giving the power beyond what we assigned it with. That value is something I'm trying to get through my head and the issues that arise from how people use money or withhold money, or abuse money that is on them, not on this thing that we all have to kind of touch to survive in the world. If that makes sense. 


    Friend: Yeah, well, you kind of, pre-answered the next question. I was going to ask there. I was going to say, so what do you think about when you think about finance or money? I dunno if there's anything else there that you'd like to I think that gives us a good sense for how you were thinking about it. 


    Amanda: Yeah, I think that about covers it, just trying to bridge the gap between like what we have to do to survive in this world. And also what brings us joy in making art. I could be doing this by myself with nobody ever seeing me, but I choosing to sell my work to people. So there's always a little bit of that in there that you kind of have to reconcile.. 


    Friend: Uh, You had talked about having your taxes done already, which for the record, we're recording this well in advance of the filing deadline in the U S. 


    Megan: Nerd alerts. 


    Friend: So the question there for you, Amanda is, do you manage your own finances entirely? Like, do you do the books, are you watching the flow of cash is there any part of it that you outsource? 


    Amanda: So that is something as my finances have gotten more complicated, uh, when you have, several W2's and 1099s and money that you're bringing in on your own randomly, you start to realize that it's hard. It's really easy with like, One W2, just do whatever. But when you have multiple streams of income that you're like, oh crap. 


    so for me, bookkeeping is like a big brain block. I don't know why, like I can't get my head around having to do it. Repeatedly. I think part of it is like, I just don't understand how the IRS categorizes things and I'm big into like, if a rule doesn't make sense, I don't follow it. So I was just like, why did you name it that? 


    Megan: Just a quick disclaimer, the IRS doesn't like that. 


    Amanda: The IRS really does not like that. 


    Megan: So you're outsourcing is what you're saying. 


    Amanda: So have been working really hard on that and learning like why they're named that way and like what the definitions are and like what fits into each categories. Because I do like to have things kind of like fit in their little place. So just getting more knowledge that way. yeah, learning to outsource to somebody else and learning to let somebody else see what I spend my money on is always uh, fun. 


    Friend: Fun. 


    Megan: It's a humbling experience. 


    Friend: It is humbling. There's something there, Amanda, that I wanted to just follow up on. Do you find, did you ever take a, an accounting or any kind of finance course? And do you find that now it's practical? Cause it, cause it's your money and it's your business? 


    Amanda: Yeah. So I actually did take an accounting class with my arts administration degree and I freaking crushed that class. I got like a better grade than most of the business majors, but as soon as it actually had, cause then it. Abstract sort of when it's like in a class you're like, like, okay, you're figure out your cog. 


    And it's always so like what Bob's want it to be? That it makes sense. But then when I'm like, you know, trying to decide where does stock photography fit, like, is that a supply? Is that a office expense? 


    Megan: I know it's crushing. You can't get too stuck in the minutiae or you're like deep in it, you know? 


    Friend: That's so interesting because for me it was the opposite. When I had to do accounting and finance and economics, it was that like everything's made up and it'll be fine. We'll teach you this. I could not. Like, I, it just was not real enough and I did not learn anything. So I was the, I was the finance person in your class who scored worse, but then once I got into work and it was like actual businesses with actual financial statements where I could go and see the business and talk to the owner, and then I was like, ah, that makes sense. It was the opposite. 


    Amanda: Wow. 


    Megan: That is interesting to me as a person who finds it neither interesting on either ends of the spectrum. You guys are a perfect Venn diagram, circle overlap of each other, and I'm just a dot floating out there. 


    Friend: So pricing. Pricing art. That to me is it sounds scary. Maybe it's not. Do you have an approach or a strategy or do you just like throw? I think what I would do personally is throw the pieces down the stairs and each stair is like a different price amount. And then like wherever it lands, 


    Amanda: You made some art handlers somewhere like freak out. 


    Megan: They're like, don't throw it. 


    Amanda: I've looked at all of the ways that people are like, this is how you price your work, by square feet, by what materials you use, time plus, when I remember to, I have landed on what I would feel okay with letting that piece go at. 


    Friend: Hmm. 


    Amanda: And that's just kind of like, it's very much emotional. Like if I like a piece more, I'm going to charge more for it. 


    Friend: Yeah, I love that. Well, it does cost you more in a way to let go of it. If you like it more. 


    Amanda: I mean, truly, but if I'm keeping it in a flat file, then what good is it doing there? So there's a little bit of like, that doesn't make sense. Amanda and I have recently been told by several people that I need to raise my prices. Pricing and art is so weird because it kind of makes you feel like you only ever are able to go up. 


    If you ever go down your career is over dig your own grave and just lay down in it. 


    Friend: But then once you do that, the price of your art will go up. 


    Amanda: Exactly. 


    Megan: If we all vanished for a couple of years, I would be like Banksy, you know, mysterious woman artist's been missing. And it's like, well, then I should just do that. 


    Friend: I I mean, have you looked at the price of Banksy? Banksy was like the top three seller last year. I mean, there's something. All right. Interesting. I like that. 


    Amanda: I think that's the difference between investment art though. Cause I want people who buy the art to feel a, say the same way about me giving them the art. Like, I don't necessarily want them to be like, I'm buying this because an Amanda, Michele Brown original will cost this much in the future. I want them to buy it and be like, I love this. there's an emotional resonance with this and here I need to have it. I don't want them to like, put it in a storage unit at some airport in wherever just like, wait for it to accrue value. 


    Like that's not, that's not the vibe either. 


    Friend: So Amanda, I just have a one or two more questions for you, and then we're going to let Megan run the show. Second last question for you on the money side, do you set out at the beginning of the year or quarterly or at any point a budget for yourself for the business? 


    Amanda: No. I probably should. 


    Friend: There's no right answer. It's I'm just curious. There's no right answer. I mean, how can you budget, if you don't know if sales are so variable and can't be forecasted, right. 


    Amanda: Yeah, sales are variable. And also like what I want to make could potentially be variable. I could start off. You know, making small scale watercolors is not going to be expensive, but if I want to start working in canvas and sometimes I'll just buy, even if they don't end up in the work that gets sold, like I'll buy other art supplies to kind of like dabble in that and just see what comes out and how that can be transferred over to my work. So it's hard to know what I'm going to be into in, in September, in January. 


    Friend: Do you have a goal for a year or 


    Amanda: I have like, uh, I have to reach this amount. Otherwise I will lose my apartment. 


    Friend: Right. You don't want to be a homeless artist. 


    Amanda: Yes. So I have my bare minimum and going back to our like, saver splurger thing, especially becoming a freelancer and not having a W2 anymore. I became like, militant about making sure that I had money in the bank for those dip times. So I had a fairly large cushion that I don't even think exists because it's like completely removed from my day-to-day brain. It's like in a bank account that takes like four days to ever even hit my main bank account. And so I guess that's kind of like, that's not really a budget, but it's like my oh fund. Are we allowed to swear on this podcast? 


    Friend: We just bleep it all. Good. Have one more question for you. And here again, there is no right answer. I'm really keenly interested to know, you know, many of us measure it in different ways. What is your measure of success when it comes to your business? 


    Amanda: Yeah, I think business and art would feel like two very different measures of success. and I feel successful in both in like weird, different little moments. 


    When I was done with my taxes. I was like, I am the business queen. Look, look at me. I just like walked down the street, like boss, babe. 


    Friend: We should make t-shirts. I did my taxes. 


    Taxes, done. Check. 


    Amanda: For art, it feels like it can come into, sometimes it's just even getting into the studio and making art, like where you're just like, there's so many other things to do. Like I could spend all my time doing that, or like, no, you need to just go in there and you need to make, especially if you're. 


    Megan probably can relate to this there's time. There's like a rollercoaster of making art where you're like, sometimes you're riding high and everything you make is gold. And then there could be like weeks months where everything you make. And you're just like, well, it was a fun ride, but. 


    Megan: I'm retiring. I don't know how to paint anymore. 


    Amanda: And so the only way out through that is through. So you have to like getting through that is a, a level of success. I would say that feels that's when I'm like, okay, you're a real artist, because if you're not a real artist, you would have given up. 


    Friend: That is remarkably similar to what some work days are like, and it's not as personal because you're, we're not making like these visual representations of, how much it was flowing, but I also have some days or weeks, right. I'm getting nothing done. This is where it just feels like I'm going backwards. 


    And as you're in it long enough, and you don't give up, you realize it's going to come back around again, not every day is going to be my best day for concentration, but I will have good ideas and I will have, you know, so it sounds like it's a similar, feeling where like it's not always perfect. But if you wait it out and keep showing up, it will come back. You'll come back into it. 


    Amanda: Yeah, I think so much of art making is just tenacity and, just a little bit of audacity that like, people need to see what I have to create. 


    Megan: That's like all the "acities" really though. It's it's stubbornness truthfully, you had a stop on your Instagram the other day, like 90% of artists quit. 


    Amanda: Yeah. don't know if that's a real stat, but somebody told me, once upon a time that like, after you graduate, probably one of the professors trying to scare us that like, after you graduate, only 10% of the class would still be making art 10 years from then. 


    Friend: Wow. 


    Amanda: And so I was like, well, that's not going to be me. Like took it as like a personal challenge. 


    Friend: I've just seen another t-shirt, is, I think we need to start making t-shirts which is. 


    Megan: merch coming soon. 


    Friend: Audacity plus tenacity equals art. See artists can do math too. 


    Amanda: There we 


    go. 


    Friend: There we go. 


    Megan: Love it. All right. We're switching to chat about art, which I feel like is a strange pivot mentioned because we've been taught. We've been really chatting about art the whole time, but it's my turn. Apparently, officially, but friend, you can keep talking because that's what we do. 


    Friend: Yeah. I may keep interrupting 


    Megan: please. 


    Okay. my question for you, Amanda, is, do you love your job? And when I say job, I mean, as an artist, 


    Amanda: Yes. Love it. 


    Megan: like everyday you wake up and like birds are chirping and you're like, yeah, 


    Amanda: Well, I don't know about that. I don't know, a grownup kind of love. 


    It's a mature level where, you know, like when you love a partner and, but they're still annoying as hell sometimes. it's that like balance where, you know, you're in it for the highs and lows as we've discussed. 


    So funny story, and this will kind of ties back to money too. I was, doing a study abroad course in like, The European union. And we were talking to somebody from like Germany, who was talking about people retiring and not retiring fast. So it was like a whole thing for like them to keep up their like pension system. And he was like, okay, like you, he picked me randomly out of the audience and was like, when do you want to retire? And I was. I'm not going to retire, but he didn't ask me what I do. He didn't ask me that I was going that I'm an artist. So I had hoped to be making art until I'm dead. Uh, and so it was just like typical American answer. I was like, dude. 


    Friend: That's not the goal. The goal is not do a job you don't love until you can afford to not do it. The goal is do the job you love until the end. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Amanda: Yeah, I think that's the difference between like a job and a calling. 


    Friend: Amen. 


    Megan: Word. All right. We're ending on that because that's too good. All right. Present company excluded. Who are your favorite artists right now? 


    That's not a so noxious way to ask. 


    Friend: going to say me. She was going to say, friend is her favorite 


    artist, right? 


    Megan: I wrote in the original script here. I wrote, I know me, but also, and then I was like, okay. 


    Amanda: Tone it down, 


    Megan: Chill. Okay. So who are your current 


    Amanda: You know, I would have said you as like my first, first one. 


    Megan: No, really. There's a lot of good artists 


    Friend: Is this what it's like when you guys go out for like dinner or coffee and we're not recording or you're like, you're such a good artist. No, you're such a good artist. 


    Amanda: Actually yes. 


    So right now I'm really into, Shirazeh Houshiary. She approaches her work in a way that's very similar to mine in that she allows happenstance to be a big contributor to her work. And I saw there's a YouTube video that I saw of her kind of like explaining her process. And I was just like, that's it? That's what I, that's what I want to do. And her work looks totally different from mine, 


    but 


    Megan: Who else? 


    Amanda: So Kathryn MacNaughton it, she's pretty big on Instagram. but she has these like beautiful, very colorful abstract pieces. That it seems like she works both reductively and additively, because it's like, you're seeing through these different layers and there's just a lot of motion to it. 


    Uh, and they're just super gorgeous. 


    Friend: What is that mean? Reductively and additively for of us who 


    Amanda: Yeah. So reductive means like you're taking something away, so a lot of her work feels like if I could show you how to, how I imagined she makes it, she doesn't show her process videos, but I imagine she is like painting a layer with like tape or something, kind of covering something up. 


    And then when she removes the tape, you have like the layer beneath. So you're kind of like, she's almost like down instead of just putting on top of 


    Megan: like my paintings have a complete lack of restraint. Hers have like this tangible, like how in the world did she paint a painting and then not have it touch the other parts of the painting? Like the feeling is almost like it makes me a little nervous. 


    Friend: Well, because she's, she's had to be stringent. 


    Megan: She has a lot of self-control. 


    Amanda: Yeah. 


    Megan: Okay, cool. We'll add those two to our show notes. I have another question. What are your thoughts on art versus fine art? What is the difference? 


    Amanda: This is an interesting question. And I don't mean to say this to be rude, 


    Megan: No, it's not. 


    Amanda: I don't care. 


    Megan: I love that. That's the best answer. 


    Friend: Okay. So am I asking the wrong question then? Cause I'm like, what? I need to, I need a definition, but it doesn't matter. 


    Amanda: I think the way that people would probably see it as like art is just is, and fine art is trying to like, say something more. the reason why I don't care is the process of creation. You're already saying something no matter what, I don't think you can divorce, the utility of something if you're just having a piece of art and it's only goal is to sit on your mantle and look pretty and not tell you some deeper thing about the world. That's fine. It doesn't make it less than, and I feel like sometimes people try to use art versus fine art as like a, this is better. This is worse. I mean, there's bound to be somebody, some art theorist somewhere who likes, spends all their time thinking about that, but I, I, don't care. I am trying to say something with my art. Like there is a, my art is very much about the ideas of memory and identity and, trying to control what is kind of not controllable. But someone's inability to see that and who might see it as purely aesthetics, and then relegated to art rather than fine art, it's not, it's not a categorization that I feel like other people can make for something. that makes sense. 


    Megan: That's brilliant. 


    Friend: Yeah, that was, I need to listen to that one again. I think that was good. Thank you. 


    Megan: Ah, 


    Friend: All right. You want me to do this one 


    highlighted it for me? That was, that was, 


    Megan: I don't know what else to 


    do 


    Friend: I like to like, shake that one off. Thank you. 


    Megan: I'm like cold. 


    Friend: All right. This is a random one for you, Amanda, do you think that you can tell by looking at a painting, how emotionally involved or inspired the artist was? Does the outcome tell us anything about the emotional state of the input? 


    Amanda: I think people definitely like to think that they can parse that out, that like, oh, this is uninspired, but the same thing that somebody says is uninspiring you'll have somebody else crying in front of it, so.. 


    People will maybe really resonate with a specific color and I won't want that color. it's just not my vibe right. In this moment. So it's do I make more pieces that I know will sell in this specific color just to make money or do I allow myself to keep going down the path that I want to, to create the work that I'm creating now. And maybe it's both sometimes you can be like, I'm going to make some of these that I know are going to sell like hotcakes. so I can work on the passion project type work and be able to, I feel like a lot of artists do that with commissions too, where it's like, I don't really want to go through with somebody else, the process of creating a piece together, like picking out specific colors that match your living room. I personally love it, but I know a lot of artists don't like it. those commissions are what kind of funds them to be able to work on whatever they want to work on for the rest of the year. 


    So it's finding that balance that you feel comfortable with. And I think that. If anybody could tell you something, they can tell that it's uninspired. I would be shook to my core. 


    Friend: Suspicious. Yeah. 


    Amanda: Sure. You can. 


    Megan: I mean, I do commissions because I know I'll make that amount that month. it makes me sleep at night. And then I paint in a flurry of creativity, Like a crazy person, because I have accounted for the other part. Is that a real human that pays the water bill, right? Like it's, don't understand how you divorce yourself of that. 


    Amanda: Yeah. And as a graphic designer too, there's the idea of graphic art and commercial art being different from hand quotes that you can't see on a podcast, the fine art that we were talking about before. I think the, both of them are ways of communicating. And one is art. 


    The goal is I want the viewer to communicate with the paint. I want them to see themselves in the painting like commercial art is the flip of that. It's I'm trying to communicate something to somebody else. And so as long as you have communication happening. It's art. It's fine. And letting go of what you see other people doing. Cause I think that's the only uninspired art is if you're doing something that somebody else you're trying to steal somebody else's words or their, their inspiration. 


    Friend: Well, thank you for humoring me on that one. It's an odd old world, you know, I'm trying, I'm like reading art news and websites and articles. And so for really the first time, and sometimes I'm like, Who is some of these people are snootier and, and more exclusive than, you know, like the private wealth bankers, who are the people who, you know what I mean? 


    Like I can't, I like it should be accessible. I don't understand why it's really not that mysterious or you don't really have the answer to what that means. it's, like this form of snotty, Art critics that like, know, like you go to a good restaurant, you know, the food is good. You don't need somebody to articulate the scent of the spices, right. 


    Megan: It's hard. It's a hard world. It's, it's, it's wild. It's the wild world of art. 


    Amanda: Welcome to the art world. 


    Megan: But also once you know that it is very nice to know that some of the gatekeepers out there don't like my art. I get denied from a show, fine, because I used to be like, I'm denied. They hate me. 


    And it's like, well, not everyone's gonna like you. And if they do like you, everyone likes you. That's probably weird. And someone will like you if you keep trying, but you have to actually do a good job and produce art. That's authentic. Anyways, we have to move on to the rapid fire round, which we have to be rapid, Amanda. I'm saying I'm literally yelling at myself. 


    I'm 


    Amanda: not going to be rapid. 


    Megan: Okay. fine. 


    Friend: I'm going to start a timer. 


    Megan: Ready? Go. Dogs or cats? 


    Amanda: Dogs, but I do love, I like cats too, but I have a dog. So I'm biased, 


    Megan: Okay. Fine. That was rapid enough. Tik TOK or Instagram? 


    Amanda: Instagram to post tick-tock to watch. 


    Megan: Are you younger than me? Us. I think you are. 


    Amanda: holds up 


    Megan: I'm not. I can't even give you like fingers. It'll take us hours, tea or coffee. 


    Amanda: Tea. 


    Megan: What? 


    Friend: Yes, I like it with, caffeine or without? 


    Amanda: With caffeine. But I like coffee too. 


    Megan: She's like both. Both, both. 


    Amanda: Middle of the grid. 


    Megan: Wine or cocktail? 


    Amanda: Cocktails. 


    Friend: Which one? 


    Amanda: I'm a big gin and tonic lady. 


    Megan: Oh, she's very fancy. She's secretly fancy. Okay. Miami or New York. 


    Amanda: New York. 


    Megan: What was your worst subject in school? 


    Amanda: I was trying to think of this one, because I was I'm a little nerd and I was like, I'm trying to think I mean, fluctuated, but I'd probably say physics? 


    Megan: That's the second physics answer we've had. 


    Amanda: Physics is hard. 


    Friend: Physics is so hard. 


    Megan: Never took it, couldn't didn't let me in ?The room. Favorite book as a small child? 


    Amanda: How small? 


    Megan: I 


    Amanda: Like chapter little chapter book or? 


    Megan: 36 inches tall, like second grade. I don't know, like a kid. 


    Amanda: I really liked the book, My Side of the Mountain. It's about a kid, this kid runs away from his home in New York City and goes up to the Catskills and like lives in the wild for a year in a tree. 


    Megan: That's your memoir. 


    Amanda: Yes, 


    Megan: That's cool, but predictable. All right. favorite artists living or past? 


    Amanda: I am a big Kandinsky fan. I love his work.. Yes. 


    Megan: I would never have guessed that, but I get it. Best restaurant in Brooklyn. 


    Amanda: Our current favorite, I would say it's probably Claro, which is right by, where I live. It's a Mescal and restaurant it's super delicious. It was our last hurrah before everyone went into quarantine, because it's normally really hard to get a seat. So we were like, " now's our moment!" ran in there and then everything shut down. 


    Megan: But they're still around. 


    Amanda: Yes, they are still around. 


    Megan: Okay. Good. Well, that concludes our rapid-fire session. I'd like to thank you personally for being here with us today. We love you. Where can people find you on the internet? 


    Amanda: I'm on Instagram at Amanda, Michele with one L art, and TOK too. But I post as regularly there because I haven't gotten the hang of it because I'm not a gen Z er, still like, like it. I'm dabbling. and at my website, Amanda, Michelle art dot com. 


    Megan: Great. We'll link in the show notes also. And then the last, last thing is the former teacher in me really wants to know, you have a homework assignment for us? It can be something to work on, physically, something to think about something to read, et cetera. 


    Amanda: Yeah. So a if you were getting into more art stuff, an interesting book that you might want to read, around art and finances. It's a book. The $12 Million Stuffed Shark. 


    Megan: that shark. 


    Amanda: Yeah, that shark. So it's that the curious economics of contemporary art by Don Thompson. So it's all about, Damien Hirst work. you know, the one that's like a stuffed shark in a tank. 


    Megan: No, his work is like beyond my comprehension. 


    Amanda: Still one of the best titles and all, I don't care what anybody else thinks about his work. I really love the title of this piece. 


    I think you'll be fascinated. 


    Friend: Okay 


    Megan: on for like a book club. 


    Amanda: Ooh, I love a good book club. 


    Friend: yeah. 


    Amanda: I will say for artists listening, who read it, it is. There's so many stuff in it that you kind of want to take with a grain of salt because it kind of presents it as, this is the art world, all or nothing kind of stuff. And I think what people don't realize is that's like the very tippy top of the art world. And there's so much art land beneath that, that you can live and thrive and be happy. You don't have to be. You know, Damien Hirst. You can be very successful not being Damien Hirst probably way happier, honestly. 


    Friend: That's awesome. That's a good assignment. Thank you. 


    We'll we'll link to the book. Very cool. And also the, the art that it references for those of us who have no idea what you're talking about. Alright, well, that was fun. Thank you. 


    Amanda: Yeah 


    Megan: thank you 


    Amanda: for having me. 


    Friend: Do you want to come back again 


    Amanda: Of course hang I so many things I love to talk. 


    So 


    Friend: I mean, I, this whole digital art NFT, 


    Megan: Darn. We wanted to talk about that. 


    Friend: It's a whole episode. 


    Amanda: I could give you more homework if you want to look into that. I really, cause I really want to find somebody who can talk to me about this on an artist level, because everybody's just thinking about it on the like money level. And it doesn't make sense in my head. But there is this old art theory. 


    Not really like a book, kind of like a long essay, a pamphlet, called Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction. And it's about like when printmaking started becoming widespread and like, what is art? If you can reproduce a work of art, almost to T In a poster kind of. and so it talks about like that je ne sais quoi that art that's made with some of these hands has versus a reproduction, like where do we put the value? 


    And so it's in the land of NFTs. I really want somebody to kind of like reapproach that. In like art in the age of NFTs, where is the art object now? If it not even an object. 


    Friend: It's still visible, but it's not tangible. So did we need art to be tangible or are we okay with it just being visible? 


    Megan: What if like what if I'm not okay with it? 


    Friend: We should talk about it. We should really talk about it. 


    Megan: has to be tangible. That's the whole point, right? 


    Cause it's made with your hands. Like it's a thing 


    Friend: a song is not tangible 


    Megan: I know, but isn't it so 


    Amanda: Yeah 


    Megan: hearing it live from the artist than it is hearing it on the radio. 


    How did you ever been to a concert? And you're like, wow, that was way cooler. Seeing the person strumming the guitar and you're like, whoa. 


    Amanda: But Megan, what if by thinking this way, we're becoming the people who poo-pooed impressionists 


    Megan: I know 


    Amanda: We're the, we're those guys. 


    Megan: I am. I'm the guys that are like, Nope, can't come to this show. You're too weird and bright. 


    Friend: So we have more to cover. 


    Megan: All right. NFT episode coming soon. 


    Amanda: Yes 


    Friend: Amazing. Thank you. 


    Megan: Thank you so much. 


    Amanda: Thanks. 


    Friend: well, that brings us to the end of this episode. Thank you so much to Amanda for being our artist in residence today. 


    Megan: Hi. 


    Friend: Hi, so we had to do this post, 


    Megan: Post recording here we are on a different day. It's like we've taken all the days and put them back together though 


    Friend: that's all right. 


    Megan: technological way. 


    Friend: Amanda was amazing and we loved having her on as a guest. 


    Megan: Quite frankly, I'm glad we've had time to digest it all because she's quite a force. 


    Friend: You know, what I have kept thinking about is her education. I had no idea there was an art administration degree. That's like the business of art. Who, who are these people? 


    Megan: All art degrees should be that. When she said it, I was like immediately jealous, filled with rage. 


    Friend: Yeah. And I was like, let's have some more of those 


    Megan: I wanted them to tell us like all the classes she took related to that we have to have her back on and say, okay, talk to us about college. 


    Friend: Yes, exactly. 


    Megan: And I think that's why she's not so frightened of money as me because she has had training. 


    Friend: Right, when she was talking about the accounting I was like, what? This is the thing. This is so great. 


    Megan: I was jaw dropped. There were many jaw dropping moments with her. Also. I just love her like effortless, casual, but extremely intellectual vibe. 


    Friend: All the time. 


    Megan: Down to earth. Fabulous love her. 


    Friend: Yeah. She's the person I know who pulls off one piece outfits, including overalls, the best. 


    Megan: Adult overalls. 


    Alright. this is Megan of Art by Megan. 


    Friend: And her friend, your patron of the arts. 


    Megan: Wishing you more art. 


    Friend: And maybe, a better understanding of your money. 


    Megan: Hold on a quick conversation on adult overalls. 


    Friend: No, 


    Megan: I wear them, I look like my ancestors, farming people. 


    Yeah. 


    Friend: No, I will not. 


    Megan: Like potato farmers. I just feel like I can't. I try, I'm done trying actually rip overalls. 


    Friend: Yeah. It was a thing you won't wear vest and I will not wear overalls. It's not even if you drop the straps, then you're basically, you know, 


    Megan: Just wearing like a single it, you know, like, like a wrestler. I have a hard time, like, so let's just hashtag tall girl content, overalls don't fit no matter how long or tall quote, air quote, they say they are, I'm just hitting the table with rage because whole life has been me trying to shove my humongously tall body into like styles meant for petite people. 


    Friend: One piece bathing suits, not a No way. 


    Megan: It's inappropriate. 


    Friend: Uncomfortable. 


    Megan: A jumpsuit, like a chic artist in her studio wearing a coverall. Nope. It also inappropriate. 


    Friend: There was a woman in the airport the other day that was taller than me. So she was probably above six feet and she was wearing a one-piece sweat pants suit, where the zipper was up at the back of her neck. And I was thinking, 


    Megan: How, 


    Friend: how do you go to the bathroom in an airplane? Like, Yeah. like, what are you doing first of all, second. Where did you get that? Because it looked like it fit. It was one piece third, no. 


    Megan: Is it cute? 


    Friend: No, it, well, no, it wasn't. 


    Megan: Not your style? 


    Friend: Not my style. It looked comfortable, 


    Megan: Well, comfort is one thing, but adorable is another. 


Third and Fourth
Episode 007 - Guest Interview: Amy the Accountant

Accountant Amy Timmer joins us today from the Netherlands! Amy explains how accounting has nothing to do with math, what she does to maintain her calm (hint: it involves numbers. And paint), and one thing small business owners should stop doing.

Listen, follow and review us on your go-to podcast directory: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | Google Podcasts

Show Notes

  • Guest: Amy Timmer

    If you would like to get in touch with Amy, please reach out to us and we will connect you.

    How to Be an Artist by Jerry Saltz

    We were just kidding about affiliate links for $250 t-shirts ;)

    Mint tool

    Personal Capital tool

    Author and illustrator Oliver Jeffers

    The 21 Balloons by William Pène du Bois

    Homework:

    Release the stress over finances. Just focus on doing what you love and the rest will follow.

    Rate, follow, like, or share The Art$ with a friend.

    We would love to hear from you! Email us your questions and ideas at podcast at artbymegan dot com

  • Megan: Okay. Ready? 


    Friend: Yup. 


    Megan: I don't want to waste your time. 1, 2, 3. 


    Friend: Welcome to The Arts, a brand new podcast about art and money. I've spent my career managing at some of the world's largest financial institutions. So I can't tell you my name, but trust me, talking about money is my jam. 


    Megan: And I'm Megan, I'm an artist and a teacher. And now co-host of this amazing podcast. We're having this conversation because we came to a realization. We have no idea how the other person spends her workday. 


    Friend: Or her money. So let's chat about it. 


    Megan: On today's show, we're talking all about the Benjamins. I am so excited about that joke! 


    Friend: How many do you know? 


    Megan: Nope. Just this topic. Do not wait, hold on. Do you know what that means? Right. 


    In the United States of America. 


    Friend: I'm just learning. 


    Uh, yeah. 


    Megan: All right, well. 


    Friend: Benjamin's are hundreds, right? Okay. I've only been in the U S a few years and in none of them, did I carry cash? So that joke is you are showing your age, 


    Megan: my jeans are are also showing my age, but anyways, we're talking today to an accountant. That was it. 


    Friend: I was thinking of making a joke, but I didn't have one. 


    Megan: Well, It's not funny. Money is not funny. 


    Friend: It's not funny, but it does have some great stories to tell, stay with us. It's going to be absolutely fine. Amy is amazing. She is the .. Well, she's my favorite accountant and I have worked with accountants my entire career. 


    Megan: Yeah, for you. That's like a higher ranking system than me where I'm like, she's THE accountant. 


    Friend: No, she's, she's the best. And it's going to be perfectly fine. No sweating on this episode. 


    Megan: All right, well, let's do this, but first The Scene. 


    Friend: The Scene. I wanted to ask you first today, what is trending? What are you? You please tell me. You have not read another book in the five minutes since we last recommended another book what's happening. 


    Megan: I'm having a bit of a polygamous book, adventure. 


    I just dip in and out. You know, it's like very flirty. I don't know. I'm just not committing well right now I have too much on my mind, but I'll tell you what all I think about is like, how are people consuming art and media these days, specifically people who are not like me. 


    So people who are out there who want to learn about art or who want to invest in art, I really want to know where are they finding? The art, which is a really dumb question when I'm saying it out loud here, but when I ask clients, one of them recently told me they Googled local artist and I popped up, which is great, but I'm like, how did you like really? 


    But how, and also That's great for that one moment, but I'd like to have like a deeper knowledge of what people who are searching for art are looking for. All that to say, Not even getting into like digital art, because that makes my brain hurt. But how are people searching for physical paintings? That's on my mind. 


    Friend: That's a great question. 


    That's something we need to get to the bottom of, maybe we could run a poll or like a, you know, have a quiz or something on the show notes. I'll see if I can figure that out. 


    Megan: Oh, I like that. 


    Friend: And it would be very interesting. 


    Megan: Yes. I think these things snowball over time also. 


    Friend: Yeah. And you know, it's also a question. A lot of small businesses have, and I love it when I am interacting with an owner and they say, how did you find us? That's like the first question or one of their most important questions, because they're all trying to figure it out. 


    Megan: why can't we find this information? Is the internet that weird and vast and full of rabbit holes, 


    Friend: Yes. 


    Yes. I think so. someone at Google knows. 


    Megan: I don't want to, brag, but I'm going to brag. 


    Friend: Toot, toot. 


    Megan: I don't know. if you know, here you are speaking to a Pinterest celebrity. 


    Friend: No, I didn't know. 


    Megan: It doesn't matter at all 


    my point is it doesn't matter? No. I mean, when I look at my stats on Pinterest. it's as if I'm Madonna, but I'm like, Mmm, that's not correlating to anything. No one's ever said, Hey, we found you on Pinterest. Like it doesn't no offense. Pinterest, love you. But like what? 


    Friend: Yeah, it doesn't translate. 


    Megan: Yeah. Cause we have to get to the bottom of this. 


    Friend: I personally, find artists by befriending people and then realizing they paint stuff and then wanting to support them. 


    Megan: I feel like, honestly, that's the way to go because word of mouth works really well. If you're a decent human. 


    Friend: All of the paintings I have purchased and any that I am contemplating purchasing are from people I know which means as the artists, like how, how tiring is that? You have to have actual, real friends. 


    Lots of them. 


    Megan: Are you kidding? I would rather just chat with people all day long instead of like, worry about algorithms. 


    So problem solved. Cool. All right. 


    Friend: There you go, I think we got it. 


    Megan: Okay. 


    Cool. All right. So, what's new in your world of thinking about things? 


    Friend: Oh, well, I had a fun book for you this week that I wanted to share. You probably don't need it, but I, that maybe there was some little nuggets in there and definitely for the audience like me, who just wondering, like, how do I get more creative? In my life or I have this dream, I don't know how to pursue it. 


    It's called How to Be an Artist by Jerry Saltz. 


    Do You know him? 


    Oh, okay. 


    Megan: He's a legend in the industry. 


    Friend: I did not know. He writes like a legend. 


    He is an art critic for those of us who are polygamous with our reading, this is a great one to just add into the mix. It's an easy read. It's fun. Every chapter is a little piece of advice about how to create, you know, how, how to get your art going. 


    And I found it very practical. He had little homework assignment. I loved it. It was just like us. So we could maybe find some ideas there, but, mostly I loved it because the very last piece of advice was, "and also, p.s. make time to go dancing." And I was like, yes, that is how we should be living! 


    Megan: Surely that is the answer, right? I mean, if, if someone's creative, their life is quite full of adventure or content. That is awesome. Right? 


    Friend: Yeah, yeah. it's not just a singular dimension. Anyways, I thought it was really great. Easy read quick, and I would recommend it. 


    Megan: That's cool. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: I will check it out. Thank you. 


    Friend: Yeah, no problem. All right. Let's get to the main exhibit for the day. 


    The Main Exhibit. 


    Megan: Okay. We're super excited today to be joined by Amy. Amy Timmer is a certified public accountant or CPA and has been supporting small and medium sized businesses with a public accounting firm. For over 10 years. 


    Amy has lived everywhere in Idaho, California, Hawaii, New York, and currently, she's living in the Netherlands with her husband and son, where she's learning to speak Dutch drive while surrounded by bicycles and live in one time zone while working in another. 


    Friend: Welcome Amy. 


    Amy: Thank you happy to be here. 


    Friend: Yeah, we're so excited. Thank you for joining us. I have been telling Megan about you since before day one, when the show is just a concept, I was like, we definitely need Amy because Amy is chill and she's confident, but humble, you know, that confident, but humble, smart, that we all hope for, it's just amazing. And also we need to hear from some accountants because, uh, wisdom. So, Amy, I could digress here and talk about how long it's been and how much I need to come and see you. But that is not what we're here for. It might get awkward for, everyone, including Megan. 


    Megan: Never never awkward. 


    Friend: And we know you're, you know, you're squeezing us into a very busy schedule. so we'll just dive right in. 


    Megan: All right. So we've read your bio. I mean, we, we agree. It sounds super nice. I've I've actually never met. I don't think, well, no, that's incorrect. I've only met a few female accountants who were young and I wanted them to know truly, like, what do you do all day? I don't mean this in a rude way, but this is like a silly, silly question. 


    Um, I just can't imagine. So what do you do all day? 


    Amy: You make it sound like we're unicorns or something, but a lot What do I do all day? It depends on the day. It's, a lot of, a lot more human interaction than you would think. When you think of an accountant, it's a lot of meetings with clients. It's a lot of internal meetings with colleagues. 


    You do have behind the scenes, screen-time. Looking at numbers or viewing things, running reports, but it's a lot of interfacing with people and explaining things to them, asking questions, getting information, trying to get things buttoned down the end of the day. 


    Megan: interesting. I never pictured it that way. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    I picture it all black and white and numbers and dollar signs. 


    Amy: No, it's a lot of fact finding it's like, so much of your time is just gathering information and trying to understand what happened and is it recorded correctly? And never seen this before, how do I record it? so it's a lot of information gathering is probably the best way to describe it. 


    Megan: That's cool. 


    Friend: Off script were you good at math? 


    Amy: No, 


    I hate. That's like one, when I was reading this interview, we can talk about it later. But when I was reading this, I was like, that is the biggest misconception about accounting. No accountant is good at math. None of them. 


    Megan: Oh, 


    Amy: like it's not accounting and math are not, not, in the same bubble. 


    Megan: How so? 


    Friend: It an art not a science? 


    Megan: Mind blown emoji. 


    Amy: There's like very, very little math in accounting. It's like basic math, like adding and subtracting is as much math as I ever do. 


    Megan: So, but you have to be competent at like formulas. You have to build to set up the information properly. 


    Amy: Yes. Like if you can build Excel formulas, that will help you a lot. But even then it's like some, and v lookup and pivot tables. It's not calculus geometry. Like it's nothing advanced math. 


    Megan: This is shocking. 


    Friend: V lookup and pivot tables is still 


    Megan: my face got scared for a minute, but it's 


    Amy: Just ignore those words. 


    Friend: It's still skill. Yeah. 


    Amy: It's not math. I would say because I also hate math. Like I hated calculus, hated 


    Megan: Interesting. 


    Friend: So did many of us, and then we were repelled by 


    Amy: Anything with numbers. 


    Friend: That's right. Work that sounded like it would be that. So what was it that attracted you to the career and what do you think it is that accountants need to be good at, if not math? 


    Amy: Yeah. I kind of fell into it by accident. I was a freshman in college. I had no idea what I was doing with myself or what to major in. So I took a, one of those aptitude, like career assessment. And it said accountant. So I took accounting 1 0 1 or whatever it was called just to see like what even is this thing. 


    and the professor and the class, like at the end of the school year pulled me aside and was like, Hey, you're really good at this. You did really well without a lot of help. You should consider this as a career because if you start in accounting, you can do a lot of different things. If you have that foundation." 


    Megan: Well, 


    Friend: Whoa! 


    Amy: And I didn't have any other career aspirations or ideas. 


    So I just was like, okay, do that. 


    Megan: See, so chill. So confident, but chill. 


    Friend: Was it love at first sight for you or was it else? Like having the validation from a few sources. 


    Amy: There are parts of accounting. I really enjoy what I will say back to the math thing is it's not math, but it's organizing. I would say it's much more organizing numbers and like knowing how to organize numbers rather than math it's knowing, oh, these are the rules. These are the numbers. How do I match the numbers into the rules? 


    And the rules might be like IRS rules or public accounting rules or whatever, just basic accounting standards. and that I really liked like my mind, I like baking, I like paint by numbers. I like here's the rules and like follow these steps and then you get an outcome and that's what accounting is. 


    So 


    it's very like straightforward. Follow the recipe here is the result. 


    Megan: I'm like mind blown. 


    Friend: That's fantastic. That's such a great story. 


    Megan: Why aren't we telling little girls this more? I mean, not that I guess you're saying that you're not a unicorn, but I still feel like it's like a, it's not a job. That little girls are like, I would be really good at that. 


    Friend: it's not scary. 


    Megan: No, it's not scary at all. Like you're saying it's achievable and organizing and it sounds peaceful. 


    Friend: sounds orderly. 


    Amy: Yeah, it is, but that's when you get to my level, not that I'm at, like I said, at a high level, but once you get past entry level, then that's where you're getting into more of the, like, what is this number? What does this mean? Why is this here? What's the rule for this? Let me go have five meetings to figure out how we're supposed to handle this. 


    And then it gets less orderly and fun. But at its at its core, it is a nice orderly skill and job. 


    Friend: It sounds wonderful. Actually, I think you've just sold me on it. 


    Megan: Okay. This is like a meditation class. 


    Amy: And I, yeah, I loved it in college. Cause all your assignments are like put the pretty numbers in there. Pretty little boxes and get an a, like it's was fun. 


    Megan: Meanwhile, my dumb-dumb self would be like, but why, but how, but, but what's the bigger meaning. Yeah. Like where's what number? So like it's not for everyone. 


    Friend: And also there's some pretty serious exams, right? 


    Amy: Yeah, but they're optional. You don't, you're not required to get your CPA license depending on your career goals. 


    Friend: Okay, well, that leads me pretty well into the next question I wanted to ask you, which is around mobility. And you've moved around a lot as Megan shared with your bio and we're currently talking to you and you're living and working in the Netherlands. Is accounting country or jurisdiction agnostic, or do you have to certify in order to work in different places? 


    Amy: Yeah, it depends on the type of work you do. So if you're doing taxes, you do have to be certified. And in the country that you're working in with that country's certifying board. If you're just doing accounting for small and medium-sized businesses, there's no certification required. always a nice thing to get your CPA or there's a, several different certifications out there. 


    It looks great on your resume. It looks great for your career prospects, but as far as being required, that's only if you're doing like audit work or tax work, something looked at by the government and regulatory boards. And by just your your day to day, if you want to help small businesses or Etsy sellers do their accounting, you don't need any kind of certification. 


    Megan: Can I ask a followup question that is so concerning? 


    So anyone can call themselves an accountant. 


    Amy: Yes. 


    Megan: That's a little dangerous. So how do I, as a small business owner, protect myself from the person who's a self-proclaimed expert? 


    Amy: Yeah, that's a great question. You can look at certifications or ask what kind of certifications they might have. Probably the best way, Just like a lot of our other services is word of mouth referrals. Like what of what experiences have people, you know, how, and with them. 


    Megan: Again, mind blown. 


    Friend: All right. Very interesting. Is that why you can move around because your career's portable? 


    Amy: Yes. Yeah. If I was in the type of accounting, I do, I don't do tax or audit. So. I don't mean I live in Europe now and I don't need to be certified in Europe to do what I do. So it's in that way. It's very flexible. 


    Megan: That's cool. 


    Friend: All right, next question for you. We have an analogy here at the show that finance is the motherhood role of business and bankers are like the nannies. And I was wondering if you, I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I was wondering if you could help us expand the analogy, any ideas around where accountants would fit into the family analogy? 


    Amy: Well, that's a great question. I would say accountants are the handyman or the maintenance man of the home. So what they do is boring and not exciting, but if it's not done, you're going to have big problems. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Amy: And it's, it's the kind of thing, like you don't notice it and don't want to think about it until it's either not there or it goes wrong. 


    So we're the little maintenance men. 


    Megan: I think the handyman thing you're playing it down a lot because when something breaks people like that's an emergency, right? 


    It's like moms and the handyman or handy lady in this case are extremely essential to the operation. 


    Amy: Yeah, but they're like the person you don't see or think about. But you need them. 


    Megan: much like a mom. 


    Amy: yes, 


    Friend: And when you need them, you really need them and you can't, you can't really do it yourself or you probably shouldn't. 


    Amy: yes. 


    Friend: I like 


    Amy: Yeah. 


    Friend: So in effect, you could go to a dinner party and introduce yourself as a plumber. 


    Amy: Hi, I'm a tile setter. Yeah. Nice to meet you. 


    Friend: Do you think that that would be more of a conversation starter or conversation opener then? Hi, I'm an accountant? 


    Amy: Yeah, I do think so. I have tried in the past to come up with an interesting way to describe my job. Everyone knows what an accountant is when you just say I'm an accountant and then you get the response of, oh, you must be really good at math. They're like, oh, boring. are the standard standard ones. Like, oh, do you count beans all day? Yes. That's what I do. 


    Friend: Yes, fava beans. What I what I get is, oh, and then, uh, turn, they just turn their body away to the person sitting on their other side. 


    Amy: Yeah. 


    Friend: get that one too. 


    Amy: Uh, yeah, I think people have at least like a enough understanding of an accountant to be like, oh, boring. 


    Friend: It's too bad. We've mapped it that way. 


    Megan: It's interesting as someone on the other side of the aisle though, because what I do is like labeled as exciting and nine times out of 10, it's still kind of boring, right? Like I'm still doing the same task as. Person who does a job, like I'm emailing people. But they picture me like, you know, covered in paint and like smoking cigarettes or whatever they picture. 


    And I'm like, no, I was like emailing a client today. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: It's not, it's also boring. 


    Friend: have managed to find myself bored in every single job I've ever done, but I've also managed to find interests. You know, I think it's a little bit like, no job is boring if you know how to spark a light. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: Well, thanks for giving us a little bit of insight into the career. I think that's, helpful for people to hear a different perspective and what I would like to do if you don't mind is this is not an audit. 


    Megan: got a lot of accounting jokes. 


    Friend: That was my joke. is talk about your, personal approach to finances a little bit. 


    We have a comfort scale and then a sort of MoneyMind grid. Did you have a chance to look at either of those? 


    Amy: Yes, briefly. 


    Friend: Thoughts on placment? 


    Amy: On the money, mind grid I am in the top left quadrant, I would say I'm more of a saver. I'm more logical, I'll spend money on nice things or things that I've about for a long time. It's not that I'm against ever spending money, but in general, I'm more of a saver. 


    Friend: What would qualify as something that you would be like it's worth spending and you've done all the research and you're ready, like a house or like a car or a pair of 


    shoes. 


    Amy: Yeah, like, shoes, clothes. I'll always go for quality on those. I try to. Or like house things, things that I use often. I'd rather buy an expensive thing, then multiple cheap things. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Amy: But even that I think is more like the logical side. It's not like, oh, this thing is beautiful and I must have it. 


    It's like, well, it's more practical to buy the expensive thing that's going to last longer. Or if it's comfort, I will always spend money for comfort. Like for better quality shoes that are comfortable yeah. That'll get me every time. 


    Megan: Oh, my gosh, what a hit to our target audience, because she was like, really start mattering at our age. 


    Amy: Yes. 


    Megan: Like, oh, I can't have those cheap ones. 


    I'll die, you know? 


    Amy: Well, especially as here in New York and walking all the time or you're walking all the time. 


    Friend: Yeah. And what about how comfortable are you just so we know where are you on the comfort scale? One to 10. 


    Amy: Like to talk about it, or just like in my own experience? 


    Friend: ..Both. 


    Amy: Yeah, I'm comfortable in my own skin with money. talking about it. I always get a little bit like, so I'm probably more like a six when we go to talking about it. Just cause you're like, I don't know what the other person's standards are and I don't know what they're going to judge me for, but I'm happy with myself. So at this point in my life. 


    Friend: So In an audience of one, no problem. Audience of two or more, red flags. 


    Megan: Um, so it sounds like you're like a normal person. 


    Amy: Yeah, well, that's good. 


    Megan: Well, just like a generally nice human. I mean, you're taking into account. You don't want to hurt someone else's feelings because with money, we know there's a lot of feelings wrapped up in it. That's the tricky part of this whole conversation. Right. 


    Okay. Well, that's fascinating. 


    Friend: Interesting. I could probably learn something, I think, because I am so comfortable. I forget others are not. And then I just like start talking about it and then I at least can read faces. So I know when to stop once I've started. But sometimes I forget before I start that not everyone wants to talk about all the details, so, We'll try to keep this, gentle, you know, not, not too invasive. 


    Megan: You're not like a total sociopath for the record. Our friend here is like saying like she just blurts out money facts. No, you don't do that. 


    Friend: I remember one particular conversation in which Amy was involved with a group of girls. I was trying to. Get to the conversation that we've just had, but you can hear Amy's elegant way of saying like, well, I, you know, I care about quality and whatever. And I just was like, if something is not $250 or more, it's not worth buying. 


    I need it to be more than that so that I really have to like, think about the quality and think about, and then people were like, 


    Megan: Like this, woman's never bought a cheap shirt. 


    Friend: Yeah. She's never bought a t-shirt or her shoes are all. 


    Anyways, then I went home and I was like that. Wasn't what I meant. I meant to be like, if they're at a certain price point, it, it should make you think about it should help you to rationalize the purchase, you know, think about your options. 


    Make sure you. Quality. Um, don't just buy things mindlessly from the internet. That's what it was. But it 


    came across, like, I have so much money that my t-shirts 


    underwear are 


    all 


    Megan: expensive. 


    Amy: don't stop for anything under two 


    50. So. 


    Megan: No, but I appreciate what you're 


    saying. Like, as someone who will fully admit that I don't have like tons of extra spending money each month for like just random careless purchases. I appreciate the fact that you have sort of a benchmark. For like, I'm not going to buy a bunch of junk. It's more of your way of saying, like, let me just take a breath and research something before I spend a bunch of money on 


    nonsense, you 


    Friend: Exactly. 


    Megan: I think that's sort of an American shopping is we just buy stuff. 


    Friend: All right. Toward the personal side of things, then do you manage the finances for your family? And do you do your own taxes, budgeting, that kind of thing. 


    Amy: Yes, I do manage all the family finances. I do our own taxes. I filed them this morning, actually. 


    Friend: Congratulations in two countries or just one? 


    Amy: Just one I have not forayed into the European tax system yet. And it, yeah, that kind of just happened by default. Like I had just naturally take care of it and it's never been a, a discussion really. 


    Cause I don't mind doing it. 


    Megan: And you're better at it. 


    Amy: Yeah. Well also, thank you. It's better for everyone. If I handle 


    Friend: What are some of the most useful or liberating things about being in that position in the house? Being the person who is the boss of the money. 


    Amy: Well, I like being in control, so it lets me be in control, which is nice. And I just like knowing, like, oh yeah, we can afford that this month or no, we shouldn't like order out tonight because I saw yesterday we're close to maxing out the budget or whatever. I like that it gives me the power 


    I liked that it informs my decisions. 


    Friend: Yeah. And then it's harder to argue with you cause you're well-informed with the facts and the dollars. 


    Amy: That's right the numbers don't lie. 


    Friend: I like that part too. I get, excited with the knowing, you know, I like knowing where the money is and where it's come from and where it's going. We look at the highlight reel of people's lives on Instagram, but there's two people who know in your life if you should, you know, continue with the business or if you should just go find a job, right? 


    Your accountant and your banker, they both, they get to have that insight that intimate information about you. And I think that makes accountants biographers of truth, right? It's like they're writing your story. 


    Amy: That's my new email signature. 


    Friend: I think you should take it. It would be so perfect for you. 


    Anyways, we get, we get that kind of inside information in my work. I'm sure you do in yours. The question here for you is, do you find, or do you think that having that insight into others and your own, do you think that that helps you with making decisions? Like, do you pull personal wisdom from that or confidence in making your own decisions because you've seen such variation in earning and spending and profitability? 


    Amy: Yeah, that's a good question. Maybe I should take my client's lessons, more to heart. Instead of, I kind of am like, ah, work and life they're separate. But I would say one thing that I have really learned from being in the weeds of your client's financials is maybe you could equate it to, like you said, the highlight reel, like it's almost like looking at someone's life behind their Instagram or behind their social media, because you might see like a really cool client and they're popular, but we, as the accountancy, like, oh, yikes. Like this is yeah, like I'm worried for them. So I think that's what I've learned is not to just trust the exterior. And that gives you perspective and the rest of your life to like, oh, everything might look amazing on the outside, but I've seen over and over again where the cool flashy clients are often the ones the most trouble. 


    Friend: That was my experience as well when I had a role where I had that access because bankers take the financial statements that the accountants produce and we assess them and decide whether we're going to lend money. And I had one client. This is in another country, in another firm so I don't mind sharing that um, he had three Bentley's 


    Megan: Red flag. 


    Friend: and other things it was sort of a lifestyle that would go along with that. And yet he was, he would call me like once or twice a week and be like, I need, I need you to help me. Like I need cash. And, and was sort of looking to the bank to fund what looks. Exactly. And so his, and then I would talk to his employees and, his accountant so I would hear from these people, who'd be like, we don't understand, like, why is the business struggling? Why are we, why can't we get the inventory we need, and he's, you know, look at his life and it was this, like, they could kind of understand the disconnect, but they didn't truly know the way that the accountant and I knew what the problem was. 


    The problem was that he was taking the money from the bank and buying Bentley's. Right. so I figured you would have some insight and stories like that. 


    Amy: Yeah. I think one along that line, another thing I've kind of learned by all these years of looking at client's financials is probably the ones that are the most successful what I would call successful, just stable, growing, doing well as a business. They're not too focused on their accounting and their financials because we have some clients that are like insane control freaks about their financial statements and their taxes, whatever. 


    And then we have ones like the ones I mentioned who don't care at all, and everything's crazy, but probably the best ones, or like the most stable long-term are the ones in the middle who are like, not worried about every single tiny detail of their financials, but they pay enough attention that it's not a disaster by the time it gets to me. 


    Megan: It really struck a chord. 


    Friend: I was going to say, Megan, 


    Megan: I'm like gesturing in the background because I have, you know, one sleepless night, per month, not due to my children, but because of my own being the CEO, CFO, everything right. Just me. So I have to worry about the money, right. But I don't have every night to do that. I can't, I have to actually function, but I also, you know, we had an episode on risk-taking I'm willing to take a risk, but it's like a micro risk because I know kind of what the boundaries are that I've, self-imposed like our friend here who will only spend $250 or more on a t-shirt. 


    Friend: They're nice. T-shirts. 


    Amy: Must be very nice. 


    Friend: I'll link to them in the show notes. 


    Megan: We'll make a ton um, you know, affiliates, 


    but I think that's great advice for small businesses because there is so much risk, right. I'm just thinking right now, like, should I go get 10 more things framed for the show I have going on? Well, 10 more things framed as a ton of money to me on my budget. 


    Right. But it's a small risk if you think of the grand scheme of things. So I'm constantly wrestling with these small versus scary decisions and it's like, Staying in the middle is hard. 


    Amy: It is hard. 


    Friend: Well, that was good. Interesting. So next question is. We wanted to tap into your wisdom for, for our audience. We've got an audience of many creatives out there, and we're trying to provide a safe and enjoyable space for them. 


    maybe to first tolerate and then maybe come to embrace, maybe enjoy someday dealing with and talking about money. And we were wondering if you have any suggestions for our listeners who don't manage any assets. Of their personal or business finances right now. But that if we're honest, maybe they should. How would you suggest one could start to get a better understanding of personal finances or maybe tax requirements? 


    Amy: Yeah, I would start, if you're not doing anything currently, I would start with using a tool like Mint from Intuit or there's another one called Personal Capital. There's a couple software tools out there that you can link all your bank accounts, your credit cards, your loans, whatever. And it will pull in all the transactions. 


    It'll even categorize it for you. So that's like a very low bar to entry just to be able to see what am I spending. How much debt do I have. And you can use whichever tool you like the best, whichever one your situation the best, but that's a good place to start getting a handle on where am I at? 


    What am I spending? How does that stack up to what I'm earning? A lot of those tools, you can like set goals right in the tool and track your savings or investment progress. So something, I think that's a super easy place to start if you're not doing anything. If you're running a small business and overwhelmed with all the requirements, which it is overwhelming, it's ridiculous how many requirements there are for small businesses. I would honestly. If I could make a recommendation and I'm not trying to plug accountants here, but I would find like a, someone that you trust, like a friend or a paid professional tax advisor, business advisor, to take those things off your plate because your job is, do your business and not worry about what are the tax laws, like I mentioned earlier, you don't want to get so lost in what are the accounting rules and the tax rules that you're taking up brain space that you could be using to be creative. So I would just say delegate that work to someone else, and it's still great to have a tool. 


    You know, whether that's like QuickBooks or Mint or whatever platform you personally like, just so you can look and see how are things going and how am I doing, but I wouldn't get too lost in the ins and outs and I would let someone else do that. And you focus on your business. 


    Friend: Yeah, that sounds good. So it's, it's like basic categorization start to understand the categories of things and then use an expert. I mean, we do it for like, we go to a dentist, you know, 


    Megan: Right. Not like cleaning my own teeth. 


    Friend: Exactly. Like we we use professionals in so many other areas in life. I'm not sure why we would resist in this area. 


    Megan: That's so true. 


    Friend: Good advice. I like that. All right. A couple more for you, and then I'll let Megan take over and it will get maybe more 


    Megan: Weirder it's gonna get crazy. 


    Friend: Um, what is your measure of success when it comes to personal finances? And do you set goals to get there? 


    Amy: I'm generally pretty happy if all my bills are paid at the end of the month, that's a good month in my books. We try to stay in debt free as much as possible. That's been a good one for us. it's a good boundary to set. I think. 


    Friend: All debt? 


    Amy: We have said mortgage is okay. A home debt is okay, but nothing else. 


    Megan: Like no car, car debt? 


    Amy: No car debt, no student loans. No credit cards. Well we have credit cards, but we pay them off every month. So the only that we have right now is a mortgage. 


    Megan: That's amazing. 


    Amy: That's been really good. And that also helps you make decisions, financial decisions more easily. If you'll have to take on debt to do it or not. 


    Goals. We always try to have like three to six of living expenses and savings. I think that's a pretty kind of standard one. I know not everyone's able to do that. And that can be really hard to achieve but we knew it tried to do that. Um, we're not always, we don't always have that, but we try to get back there if we, uh, to use some for something else. 


    Friend: That's very textbook. 


    Amy: Yes. Yeah. It's like nothing fancy, but it works. 


    Megan: You're making it sound like pretty chill, but 


    Amy: Yeah, it's tough. 


    Megan: You're making a huge decision, like buying a new house, it's like, okay, what gives? 


    Amy: Yeah. It difficult. It all sounds easy. I mean, that's like every time you look at the like 10 basic personal finance principle, that sounds easy, but it's not. 


    Friend: Well, I think the key is that it's simple, but not easy. Simple is okay. You know what to do. You just have to work hard at it. 


    Megan: Definitely not easy to implement, but that's true. That's what makes it like an actual goal. 


    Friend: Yeah. All right. Last question. And then we'll transition toward Megan's questions. So when I think about accounting work, I imagine that it can be, intellectually exhausting, you're making decisions all day, trying to get the categories, right. Trying to follow the rules. And, one might get to the end and just feel done and tired and not have a lot of creative energy left. Is that a fair assumption? 


    Amy: Yes. 


    Friend: So given that style of work, do you personally have any creative or artistic joys that you make time for, or that you would like to? 


    Amy: Yeah, I obviously, as an accountant, I'm not a very creative person. I struggled. To do like art or music or creative things. One thing right now, we just bought a and where it's a major fixer-upper. So that's forcing me to flex my creative muscles because we have to pick tile patterns and flooring. So that in a way is forcing me to be draw on my artistic side and then try to visualize how is this all gonna come together and color palettes. So that at the moment is, is my creative hobby. 


    Friend: And do you find that fun or stressful ,or 


    Amy: It's stressful. It's very stressful for me. 


    Megan: This is, so this is so good to hear as a person on the other side of the brain, because. What stresses you out is like opposite, right? She's like, God, I just love running the numbers. 


    Amy: The numbers are predictable. 


    Megan: True. True. But I think it's more about like what you've, you've decided you're good at, right? 


    Because I've decided I'm bad at numbers. And this part of this podcast is like forcing ourselves to do something more, like not great at right. We're flexing the muscles. So I loath the tax days and then I sit down and do it and it's like two hours and I'm done. And I'm like, that seems like a little dramatic. 


    I could have just done it. It's like going for a long run or know, or like doing something that seems really difficult. And then you're done and you're like, well, I'm relieved. That felt great. 


    Amy: Yeah. 


    Megan: So same with house repair. Imagine at a point you'd be like, that was a great process. 


    Amy: Yes. Hopefully. 


    Megan: Okay. Well, creative time will come to you. Also as a new mom, you just don't have the bandwidth for it now you created a human that is all. 


    Friend: Congratulations. You get a pass. 


    Megan: Yeah, you would literally get like several years off. 


    Amy: Yes. 


    Friend: Is there something you would like to pick up when you have more time or when you're, you know, for your own creative brain? 


    Amy: This, is my like unrealistic big dream of the moment speaking of house renovations, I have become like mildly obsessed with antique tile patterns. And I want to become like a restoration tile person. You know, those cool, like 1930s, like mosaic tile. Oh. 


    Megan: That's so cool. But also, so related to what you do for a living, 


    Amy: I know. 


    Megan: Not to roast you, cause we just met, but wow. 


    Amy: Hi, I here are your financial statements. Um, do you need the new tile floor by any chance? 


    Megan: No, but it's like the same skillset. It's like, let me organize your finances and then I will organize your tiles. 


    Amy: Yes. Well, when I was telling my husband about it, he was like, Perfect for you because it's like, here's the pattern .Sit here and put things where they go. 


    Megan: That's amazing. 


    Friend: It's probably therapeutic for your brain as well. I could see that being relaxing. 


    Amy: Yes. pre-baby. I was very into paint by numbers, which don't judge me. It is so much fun. It's so soothing. You don't have to think all. You just do. And it's so nice. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: That's cool. See there when we just had to dig a little bit you're you started off by saying I'm not creative, but you are, 


    Amy: We'll paint by number is not, I'm not creating anything. I'm just following the instructions, but it's very therapeutic. 


    Megan: Yeah. It's like a mindless therapeutic task 


    Amy: Yes. 


    Megan: Relaxing. 


    Friend: And the tile work is. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Amy: Yeah, cause they'd have to come up with the pattern and 


    Friend: Yeah, cool. 


    Megan: Okay, love it. All right. I'm going to just start firing away with crazy questions. The first I would like to know is, do you love your job? 


    Amy: No, is my gut response. No. 


    Friend: That's fair. We like honesty. 


    Megan: You don't even have to say why, like you can just say no. Do you have a favorite artist and do you like to go or view original art? 


    Amy: I am honestly obsessed with children's book illustrations. 


    So I would say, and that's my art that I view and not just because I have a baby, but also pre-baby somehow children's book illustrations are just beautiful. 


    Megan: It's very magical, you know, Oliver Jeffers. He's like one of my favorites, his illustrations tell the story, Like these people are very talented at like both telling a story and just having an image. 


    Amy: Yes. 


    Megan: Do you go to art museums? 


    Amy: I do not, not as a regular activity. No. 


    Megan: Would you rather go to a museum with a person who would tell you more about the paintings instead of alone, where you have no idea? 


    Amy: Yes. 


    Megan: Okay. I'll be in the Netherlands soon. Just kidding. 


    Amy: Come show me everything. 


    Megan: But I appreciate that because I'm married to an analytical person and he prefers when I explained things to him, which is great. Cause you know, I like to explain things. 


    Friend: I felt the same when Megan came to visit, I mean, she lived in New York, but then she left and came back and we went to the met together and I had been to the museum five times and it was like seeing it for the first time. 


    Megan: Oh, that's like the best compliment. 


    Friend: it was like a personal tour. It was awesome. 


    Megan: As a chatty person, that's a nice thing to say. Also, I just figured out my retirement job, which is old lady docent. 


    Amy: Oh that's perfect. 


    Megan: Oh my gosh guys. Thanks for that. All right. How do you personally, as an accountant, approach, helping small businesses thrive in the moment, we kind of mentioned this earlier, but then earn more money or earn more over time. 


    Amy: Yeah, depending on the client. I think it's really pointing out areas where there, this is going to sound mean, but pointing out areas where they're failing. That's what I see is like, oh, your metrics in this area or off the benchmarks or whatever, you've decided you want it to be. so that's kind of just raising those issues to the client or the business owner and saying, Hey, here's where you're not doing well. You can point out here's where you're doing well, but that doesn't really help them like change something. It's just like, Hey, keep doing what you're doing. But if you point out. Here's where you are, could improve then. Yeah. That helps them overtime. 


    Megan: I have a perfect example for artists or creatives listening to this. So related to that would be, I used to sell prints like often, but the work that went into selling the print first, I had to get it printed. Then I had to. Package them all myself. Then I have to go to the post office and wait in line and mail the print. 


    And I'm only earning $30 per print, you know? And it's like that, that time and money and brain power can be used much more wisely. So I would want an accountant to flag that be like these $30 that you're making aren't adding up worth your time. 


    Amy: Yeah. 


    Megan: It's like a small example, but, but I get what you're saying. 


    Friend: Think the benchmarks, there are really great thing that maybe we can dive into another time that just, just the concept that there are benchmarks like there, and it's different by industry and by type of business. But it's not, it's not a mystery, how much it makes sense to spend on certain things versus others there, you know, Amy, would you say that you would be able to Google 


    Amy: Yeah, you can find them pretty easily by industry. Just Google, what should I be spending on payroll for my industry or for rent or overhead, those kinds of things and they're just industry standards. So you might decide, well, I pay more for rent cause I, the location is really important to me. You can modify it for your situation, but can find kind of the generally accepted amounts or percentages. 


    Megan: it's kind of like when you're young and starting out and they're like, make sure you don't spend X amount from your paycheck on your rent, things like that. Right. 


    Okay. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Every industry has it. It's the same for banks by the way, banks have benchmarks. They need to have this much capital set aside and they need to have this kind of a return right. It's it's just a matter of understanding for your space. What are the right numbers? 


    Megan: Interesting. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: This makes me want to call my tax guy, but I, I don't actually, I shouldn't call him. I'd have to wait until after the deadline. No, I just check in sometimes and he's like, oh my God. Hi, Megan. 


    Amy: Go away until the 15th. 


    Megan: I just think I'm the most cautious artists out there truly. I'm like, I have one more question and he's like, stop, we'll talk in May. Okay. I have a confession and a small story for you. I'm a math high school dropout because anyone who knows me as listening from high school, you're all giggling because I was, it was suggested to me that I pursue other options because I was literally running out of my pre-calculus classroom, like jogging away from class because I couldn't my brain couldn't handle it, like, I basically just ran away. What do you tell people, especially younger women who are fearful of numbers or are fearful of math because I I'm already getting a super calm vibe from you. And I think you would be great with like telling teenage girls, like chill. You can handle this. I'm speaking for the math phobes and I would love your advice to us. Like, how do you tell a young woman, especially, you tell you I have a daughter, but like, how do we tell these girls? Like, it's not that big of a deal and, or be confident regardless. 


    Amy: Yeah, from an accounting perspective, I think if someone wants to be an accountant or wants to be in finance or banking or whatever career trajectory they want, you really only need a basic understanding of math. Like you do not need to be advanced in math. If that, if math is not your jam, don't worry about it. 


    Don't stress. 


    Friend: Amen. It's about understanding patterns and underlying reasons and how things relate to each other. And it's about thinking it's not about calculating. 


    Megan: Okay. I'm like fluctuating between like wanting to just laugh maniacally and like full rage. Because I can't imagine that these people are telling people, oh, you're just not good at that. Like that, that rules out so many career options for people, especially women. Like they're doing this to little girls and saying like, you're not that good at math. 


    Amy: But there's so many career options out there that don't require math. Like, unless you want to be a math professor, who cares if you're not good at math? 


    Megan: Hello. 


    Amy: Like there's so many ways around. And along the way in my whatever, 10 plus years as an accountant, I've learned things along the way. I've learned Excel, formulas and things I've had to learn, but I think that's what I'd say too. You'll learn the things you need to learn to be successful. If you don't understand pre-calculus not going to hurt you. 


    Megan: A common misconception I'm hearing here is that dealing with money and confidence with money is not completely related to mathematics. Right? 


    Amy: It's very unrelated. 


    Megan: I'm shocked. 


    Friend: That's good. 


    Megan: There's our soundbite. I feel better, like, can I call her all the time? 


    Amy: You just call me anytime. 


    Friend: I love talking to Amy makes me feel better. It's like therapy. 


    Amy: Just need a calm, soothing voice. 


    Megan: Yeah. All right. We're going to fire away with some just real quick rapid fires, the tinier, the answer to the better. 


    Amy: Cool. 


    Megan: Dogs or cats. 


    Amy: Cat. That's my tiny answer. Get it? 


    Megan: Yes. Tik, TOK or Instagram? 


    Amy: Instagram slash neither. 


    Megan: Yeah, neither. I knew the answer was neither. 


    Yeah. You analog people. You don't need social media. 


    Amy: I'm too busy painting by numbers. People. 


    Megan: Well, there is something chaotic about social media, which I can understand to an analytical mind is not necessary. 


    I agree too chaotic. Um, QuickBooks or Sage? 


    Amy: Quick books. A hundred percent. 


    Megan: Tea or coffee? 


    Amy: Coffee. 


    Megan: Black? 


    Amy: Yes. 


    Megan: Homemade bread or local Dutch cheese? 


    Amy: Um, bread. 


    Megan: So hard though. Honolulu or New York? 


    Amy: New York. 


    Megan: New York always wins. Paper or eBooks? 


    Amy: Paper. 


    I need to, I like to feel it. 


    Megan: Worst subject in school? 


    Friend: Is that physical education? 


    Megan: I'm sorry. But that like, that, really fits the stereotype. Okay. Favorite book? 


    Amy: Oh, I loved the 21 balloons. 


    Megan: I don't know that. 


    Friend: I don't know that either. We'll have to look it up. 


    Megan: Okay. Favorite place to travel? 


    Amy: Oh. South of France. 


    Friend: Yes, 


    Amy: That's like my very bougie answer, but it's true. 


    Megan: I mean, once you've been there, you're like this isn't wrong. This is right. It's like spending a lot on a t-shirt. I've circled back now twice that. 


    Friend: I will. I was gonna delete it the first time. So now we have a problem. 


    Megan: No, no, it's staying, it's staying. Amy, thank you so much for doing this and being with us today, we really appreciate your time and talking to you was relaxing, which is shocking because you are in fact an accountant. And I just said relaxing. Where can people find you on the internet and, or do you want to be found? 


    Amy: I don't have a website. I have an Instagram account, but I'm not active on it. 


    Megan: Okay, 


    Amy: Email. 


    Megan: Sure. 


    Amy: Call me. 


    If you want to. Probably the best so they can go through, you can filter it, pass it on or something. 


    Friend: All right, so if anyone's interested in a super chill and very wise accountant .. 


    Amy: My Instagram handle too. They can DM me, whatever I don't mind, like if people have questions and want to talk, I'm happy to chat but as long as they know, I don't do taxes. And I'm not certified to do that anymore. 


    Megan: Fair deal. Okay. Last question. The former teacher in me really wants to know, do you have, like a question or a suggestion? We call it a homework assignment that we can our listeners? 


    Amy: I would challenge the listeners to release their stress over finances. Just focus on doing what you love and the rest will follow. 


    Friend: Wow. That's so good. So just like drop it. Are You saying, just drop it? 


    Amy: You still have to pay attention to it, but really the associated stress it's going to be okay. 


    Megan: I feel better. Thank you. 


    Friend: That was good. I liked that assignment. 


    Megan: Thank you. so much. I feel like way better. 


    Amy: Yeah. 


    I'll chat with you guys any time, interview or not. 


    Friend: Awesome. This was so good. 


    Amy: Yeah. Thanks guys. 


    Friend: So that brings us to the end of today's show. Now I said it wasn't going to be too sweaty and that Amy was super cool and it was going to be fine. What do you think? 


    Megan: That's like the opposite of I was cold. No, I really felt so relaxed by her ideas. And honestly, the best takeaway for a small business owner who feels fearful is that you can hire a professional. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: Like that's the end of it. 


    Friend: Yeah. And focus on what set out to do. 


    Megan: Right. And it's okay to like, take this a step at a time. I always feel like I have to like bite off all of the things right. And, and know everything. And that's just ridiculous. That's too much. She was so calming. 


    Friend: Yeah. pragmatic. Assured. 


    Megan: It's so nice to hear from a woman who's like very confident. She wasn't asking us to approve what she does. She was just like, this is what I do. And I'm really good at it. Period. 


    Friend: I was thinking Megan, Amy's homework assignment was actually, a simple one. 


    It was take something off your plate. It was stop doing what you're doing so nice. Right. So I was wondering if we could be a little cheeky and add in something for the listeners. In addition to that, I think it's time for us. It's simple, but I think it's time, you know, we're, we're seven episodes in, we're so grateful for those of you who have listened all the way through and are giving us the positive feedback we love hearing from you about what you like and some questions that you have. What, I'm wondering is would you help us out and tell a friend? 


    Megan: And rate and review ..Would please. 


    Friend: Oh no. Megan's starting to Megan's starting to beg. 


    Megan: I just don't think people understand. it's like we have to win at the algorithm game in this way. So like, just hit those five stars and carry on with your day. 


    Friend: That's right. Hit follow, hit five stars, share an episode, go onto the podcast page, around, send us some questions. We're loving it. We're having fun. 


    It's so much fun, but it's a lot of work. And what we're trying to do is create something to give back. 


    I think it's okay for us to ask and say like, Hey. 


    Megan: Word just, you know, spy on us a little. 


    Friend: Yeah, just like get in our business. 


    Megan: In the website and kind of poke around. You know, that vibe when you were little and you'd just be like, Hmm, wonder what's in here. Anyways, but thank you all for your loving and keep telling everyone you know about us. 


    Friend: As always, for listening to The Arts. 


    Megan: This is Megan of Art by Megan. 


    Friend: And her friend, your patron of the arts. 


    Megan: Wishing you more art. 


    Friend: And maybe, a better understanding of your money. 


    All right. Have a good one. Bye. 


Third and Fourth
Episode 006 - Guest Interview: Justina Michaels

Guest Justina Michaels joins us today. Justina is the owner of Fitting Fêtes, a New York City-based event design and planning company. Topics include sky-high luxury event budgets, how all New Yorkers compromise, and the importance of nail art.

Listen, follow and review us on your go-to podcast directory: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | Google Podcasts

Show Notes

  • Guest: Justina Michaels

    Follow Justina on Instagram

    Check out Justina’s website Fitting Fêtes

    A Woman is No Man by Etaf Rum

    The White Calico Flower by Georgia O’Keefe at The Whitney Museum

    BarMilano, Eataly

    Homework:

    Self-reflect on where you are in the talking-about-money journey, and understanding why you feel they way you do about it, and where you want to be.

    We would love to hear from you! Email us your questions and ideas at podcast at artbymegan dot com

  • Megan: All right, episode six. 


    Friend: On today's show, we're talking about all things fancy and luxurious, with our special guest and friend of the show, Justina Michael's. PS. I was thinking about this. Does art meet finance equals fancy? 


    Megan: Yes. Oh, so poetic, 


    Friend: I know. 


    Megan: But also we are fancy. I say that as my second day wearing like a full sherpa outfit, but I think we're fancy people. 


    Friend: I might be wearing joggers, but. 


    Megan: She says joggers that's fancy right there. Okay. Anyways, we like fancy things and we love Justinas. So that's a perfect, perfect thing. I love the sound of this topic. 


    Friend: Yeah, me too. I can't wait. Let's dive right into it. 


    Megan: But first The Scene. 


    Friend: The Scene. 


    Megan: So what's new in the art and finance world? 


    Friend: Well, I thought since we were going high end today, we should talk about how the uber wealthy have been spending their money on art. 


    Megan: Yes. Tell me everything you know. 


    Friend: And the timing on that is good because we're just past the year end accounting windows. This is such a like banker view on talking about art. Those of us who care about these things call this season earning season, which is when the accountants are all done, finalizing the financial results for the prior year. And then they start announcing their results to shareholders. So it turns out that the art world is on a similar schedule. 


    I have been seeing earnings stories coming out of galleries and auction houses, and, oh man, are we in for some new. news. 


    Megan: Oh, my gosh. 


    Friend: Yeah. So before I give you the answer about sales volumes, let's start with a guess. I would like you to guess, what do you think the total value of global auction sales of fine art was last year, 2021. 


    Megan: I'm going to guess. 


    Friend: You can guess. we were in a pandemic and traveling around to see and purchase art. And people who were gainfully employed was supposedly restricted. 


    Megan: I think it was probably the highest it's ever been, or I don't know a number. I don't know how to guess numbers. 


    Friend: I know it's hard, but you are right. It is higher. It was a record year. 


    Megan: Yeah. I know that because I can feel it in the world. Like I can feel it in my bones, my economic third sense? My, my third eye for numbers. No, but I think, I don't know, like billions, millions. 


    I don't understand the differentiation, but I do know that it was probably humongous and unpredictably so. 


    Friend: It was, it was, six and a half billion. 


    Megan: Woah. 


    Friend: Which is a really big number. Like It's so many zeros that it's hard to put that in comparison to normal stuff. But to give you a reference that was a 74% increase from 2020. yeah. 


    Also to, just to just give some, like, I did a little research on, okay, well, what is, what is six and a half billion? 


    Like what else is kind of in that range? So we get a sense for what kind of a number that is. So six and a half billion is just a small one and a half billion, more than the entire operating budget of the world health organization. It is 1 billion more than the value of all the land owned by McDonald's restaurants. And it is one and a half billion shy of what was raised by a government and health entities to develop a COVID-19 vaccine. 


    Megan: Oh my God. 


    Friend: And, uh, well, well below the 20 billion we all collectively spent on Netflix last year. 


    Megan: Oh yeah. Yeah, once you get some billions it's, it's hard to comprehend it, you know, 


    but. 74% increase from the year before. 


    Friend: I know, that's why I wanted to like put it in place with a couple of other items or so I was shocked when I started looking at this and, you know, a good banker will follow the money and try to figure out like, where's it coming from? Why, What are they doing with it? I ended up going down a few rabbit holes, and that will probably help us with future episodes of The Scene. I mean, there's a few interesting things I found when I started following the money, uh, in art, but I thought you would find that interesting. 


    Megan: Okay. But what I want to know is like a why we have to dig deeper into this, but also I think are people like hiding their money more and more in art? Is it becoming like a nasty or dirtier business? 


    Friend: The short answer. And that's some of the things that I, that I was finding was like the relation of art to financial crime and money laundering and crypto and all of that. Yes. The short answer is yes. 


    Megan: Because crypto, I don't want to do a whole episode on because I'm like too old maybe, or I don't understand it yet, yet, but I have downloaded some apps stay tuned. I feel like crypto to me, screams money laundering and like, oh, I just want to paint stuff. 


    But and then I'm like, maybe everyone's always been laundering their money into art. 


    So maybe that's a whole nother episode. 


    Friend: Yeah. I think eventually we should go there. I too am just in the phase of trying to educate myself and I don't know that I could speak about it intelligently right now, but I'm definitely interested in it. I think there's, a lot there. 


    Megan: There's got to be a great guest out there. That's like, I'm an expert in art heists. 


    Friend: Yes. 


    Megan: Gasp 


    I don't mean the criminal. I want like a non-criminal. 


    Friend: No. but there's a, there's a whole podcast, The Heist, which my husband loves. And, they frequently will talk about art heists. So maybe there's something there. What about you, Megan? What are you thinking about these days? How are the morning pages? 


    Megan: I mean the morning pages. I don't know if it's an age, like wisdom factor that's entering my world. I do not have more time. I've never had less time in my life. And for some reason, the morning pages are still part of my schedule, which I'm like, pat on the back. 


    Friend: That's right. Go. You. 


    Megan: I don't know if it's because I need structure so badly or if I need brainstorming or if I just love it, but it's such a good practice for me. 


    Okay. Another book recommendation in which I now, after thinking about it, realize it has mostly nothing to do with art. However, it was a shocking book that needs to be mentioned. It's wildly insane and depressing, but I do think every woman and man on the earth should have to read it. It's that good. 


    It's entitled, "A Woman is No Man." It's by a new author named Etaf Rum. She's Palestinian American, and she lives in New York City or she's from New York City. I think the reason I like this book so much is because it's written about my specific old neighborhood that we lived in for a time in Brooklyn called Bay Ridge. 


    She perfectly, captured the fragmentation of streets blocks and how, you know, like in, in many cities in the world, but specifically in Brooklyn, it's one block is this country. The next block is a completely different world. I remember getting lost once and being like, what, where am I? 


    Like, where on the globe am I? 


    Friend: It's like, Alice in Wonderland. 


    Megan: yes, yes, exactly. Like it's an other worldly experience. She captured it so beautifully. It's. Heart-wrenching book about a lot of super serious, difficult topics involving women, violence, immigration, every topic that's hard, but I still feeling it was amazing and needs to be mentioned. 


    Friend: Yeah, for sure. Listen, I think you're at the point in your career where if you say this is interesting, go look at it. People will look at it. I think that it can just be a good read on its own. And The Scene is what are we doing to keep ourselves interested in intellectually challenged and entertained. 


    And I think it falls in the category, so I will allow it. 


    Megan: thank you. I, I do think maybe the tie-in is that there is a character in the book. I don't want to reveal too much, but there's a character who is the rebel in this traditional Palestinian American family. 


    And she. Is fictional, but I'd like to have her as a guest on the episode, like on an episode. But I guess since she's getting fictional, we could have the author on, but just the imagination of this author to create a character that is rebellious in a way that you and I would like love to hang out with. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: So just read it and then report back. It's good. 


    Friend: I'll put it on my reading list. Thank you. All right. Okay. Let's get into The Main Exhibit for the day. 


    The Main Exhibit. All right. We're super excited to be joined by Justina Michael's today. Hello, Justina! 


    Justina: Hi. Thank you so much for having me. 


    Friend: Yeah, 


    Megan: I'm here too. I was just plugging in my computer. Hi, yea, here. 


    Friend: Yay. So we love Justina. She's a mutual friend and, we love her for so many reasons, primarily because of her ability to just get things done and be successful and running the show, uh, in her own right in New York City, as an independent and, I love her decisiveness and I could go on and on. 


    Megan, do you want to add any? 


    Megan: I mean, the gushing could be a whole episode. She's just like very genuine and quite bad-ass and very lovely. So it's like a perfect package in our world. 


    Justina: Thank you. That's so kind. 


    Megan: You're welcome. 


    Friend: Justina, you know, would you like to tell our listeners a little bit about yourself other than the gushing? Like what do you do and who are you? 


    Justina: Sure. Yes. I am Justina Michaels. I am a New York city based wedding planner and event designer. So that means that I live here in New York City, but we plan events all over the country and, internationally as well, which is pretty exciting. And been doing that for the last almost 11 years in May. 


    Megan: Wow. 


    Justina: Yeah. 


    Megan: That's a long time. I'm I didn't even know. That's amazing. You should be quite proud. 


    Justina: Thank you. I know time really is pretty warped these days, but I feel like it's, it's also just a decade, more than a decade. Just feels so surreal in our world as well. 


    Megan: That's so wild. So like, I can't be proud of you cause I haven't been in business that long, but I'm proud of you as a friend, so that's incredible. 


    Friend: yeah. 


    Megan: All right. So here we go. We're just gonna start with these crazy questions. 


    So my favorite question, which is like the background behind this podcast is what do you do all day? Because once I was with my friend here, Friend at dinner and I just yelled at her. What do you do all day? So please let's begin with that. 


    Justina: Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. And I wish I had a very straightforward answer for you, but of course, every day in my world is so different. Wear so many different hats as a business owner and also an event planner. So it typically starts with coffee. That's a pretty important part of my day. 


    That's how we all get going. And, the motivation to get out of bed sometimes in the morning, and it really starts with my to-do list, which I try to organize the night before. I'm definitely one of those people that was the diehard bullet journal girl for a long time and has sort of transitioned into other digital forms for my business and my life to keep things organized. 


    But I liked. Sort of tackle my hardest thing at the beginning of the day, if I can. My priority list is very long and I am a master of reprioritizing my priority list. So it is very important that I sort of holistically take a look at my day and, try to help my clients as best I can in what they need. 


    And so looking at my entire client list and what I have to get done and what I need to make a little bit more time for, to prepare for meetings, these days we are at home for a lot of our meetings, which is, great and, uh, such a privilege, I'm very fortunate to be able to stay safe here at home. But I definitely miss that dynamicism of my day. We have lots of meetings right now, and lots of different organizational tasks and lots of design meetings, which is very exciting. We're at the beginning of our season, which is really lovely. And also like a really wonderful excitement that's building up towards our, our main event season these days. 


    But some days I need breaks and I need to be a well-rounded professional as well, and sort of take a break from the office. And so today was actually a great example. I took out three hours to go to a museum. 


    Megan: Oh, that's so good. 


    Justina: I haven't done it a very long time and used to do early, early in my career, I used to do it religiously. 


    I was very, very adamant. I was going to at least one museum a week, sometimes two, I needed so much creative energy and I needed a lot of learning and understanding. And it was really building my business, trying to understand what that creative process look like for myself. And as things progressed, I got busier and busier with tasks and it got harder. 


    And then of course our lovely pandemic hit and everyone was really home more than they want it to be. And it was a. Harder to get out there. But I decided that with all the safety measures we have now, it was time to go and be inspired. And I, I really loved it. I needed it so badly and I felt so at home and so happy to be walking around and inspired by everything around me. 


    So I was even more invigorated for the rest of my meetings for the rest of the day. Still have work to do after this as usual, but I tried to take off, you know, a day or two during the week, whether that's a Tuesday or a Saturday, it's really different every week. I don't keep very strict hours for myself because my clients work nine to five or nine to nine or various hours. 


    So, my personal philosophy is just that I'm here to help and help everything get done at once. And if that means meeting with my clients on weekends or evenings, then that is what I do. 


    Megan: Wow. 


    Friend: So more of your days are, are probably like that then the big event, right? It's it's probably more, is it like 90% behind the scenes? 99% behind the scenes work? Like those days, like this. 


    Justina: Yes, I would say so. Yes, we have select event days, of course, that we pencil into our calendar and we have meetings that we have to have in person when we are getting closer to those event days. But other than that, it's a really, a lot of behind the scenes work. Luckily, we have things like zoom and conference calling and the ability to really do so much behind the scenes from home. 


    So I'm less active and sort of the more physical part of my job is really reserved for actual event days that we're on site. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    All right. Well, zoom, I think every person we interview is going to talk about meetings on zoom. 


    I think this is, this is the new used to be email. We used to tall moan about our email. 


    Megan: Yeah, for real. 


    Friend: So. Here's how we're going to do this today. I am going to start asking you some finance questions and, uh, hopefully that doesn't kill the mood. And then Megan has some more sort of creative side questions for you. 


    I'll start with one that, there's no right answer. We're really just trying to, get a sense for what are people other than us thinking about when we, when we say this. So when you think about finance, what do you think? 


    Like, what does it make you think about? 


    Justina: I think, I think if we're playing word association, then money is the first one, right? Like money management. Then I think. And then I think yuck because my former self really didn't want anything to do with numbers or money, I had no interest in going into that world at all. And so, of course it's a part of my daily life and part of my job, but, that's where my mind is sort of immediately goes when I think of all of that sort of in conjunction with one another. 


    That's just the honest breakdown. 


    Friend: Good. No, I like that. I like the progression there. 


    Justina: Yep. Thank you. 


    Friend: We ended in yuck. So that's. It may not be like there, it may not be obvious the connection between these luxury and very creative and bespoke events. But at least in my mind, it's hard for me to disconnect events like weddings from money and like from the finances of it. And I just love to know how much things cost and how, you. know, if you're dealing with different vendors, like who who's charging, what, and who's maybe overcharging or undercharging. And I feel like you would get that perspective. You have that. Kind of fly on the wall perspective on it. 


    And then you also probably have a sense for how clients are deciding when to save and, and splurge. And so when I think about some of these events, it's like, for me, it's like blinking money and I'm sure that's not typical for a lot of the people you work with, both of you. Right. I just want to be honest and say like, I hear, I hear events and I think like money, I think like, there's just like, people will just spend seemingly endless amounts on their weddings. And, so question for you, there is how often do finances and budget and other people's money like how often does that come up when you're working with clients and with vendors? 


    Justina: Yeah, no that's, I mean, those are great questions. It comes up every day. It comes up in my client work constantly. I specialize in full service in my industry, which means that I start from the very beginning and we really build an event out. We hire the vendors, we help our clients determine what their budgets are and how they want to spend their money. 


    And that's a challenge when you need a wedding planner to help you do that. And we also have to determine our prices and they have to determine how much they need a wedding planner and what those prices are. So all of that is very. Bundled up into a complicated thought process for the client, of course. 


    But once I am hired and we have a budget to set, it does speak volumes about the type of event that they will have, because we all need to budget for events. And every type of event that you have, whether it's a birthday party or it's an extravagant wedding or a large corporate affair, there is money involved and money exchanged. 


    So I think that I have a unique position as a wedding planner to take a big chunk of money and help a client divide it all up. So we get to sit down and prioritize their needs and decide what is that they want, but also manage their expectations. If this big ball of money is not enough to really create what it is that they really want, which is also, you know, very heartbreaking and hard. But we always start with prioritization and. Figure out what it is that they really, really want out of this event. And then we give them some hard truths about what it costs and we try to help them as much as possible, uh, that said most clients in the luxury wedding business and the wedding business in general go over their budgets at least 15 to 20%. Sometimes as much as 50. So they, certainly evolve in that process. And I think once you are spending a certain amount of money, Spending more of it is justified once you understand why the cost is higher, or you understand why someone costs a little bit more than you were expecting them to, or in comparison to another vendor. 


    So switching over to the vendor side vendors costs of various amounts of money and in a city like New York, you have so much diversity in so many options, and it's very hard as the average consumer to understand what it is that you're paying for and what you're getting for it. So going through that process is really why my job exists just to help them understand the differences in pricing and why someone might be priced for a certain reason. 


    I always try to be supportive and transparent about the fact that that is a business owner who can set their own prices for whatever experience level they have and what it is that they're going to deliver to that client. But they also get to decide what it is that, you know, they really want and expect from that person as well. 


    So there is a lot of money exchange and things cost such a various amount of money. I mean, a photographer can be $3,000. They can be. $30,000. So we have such a large amount of money to distribute in a wedding and we have to decide what's most important. And the more money we have, the more options we have in some ways to help them create that luxury event that they're really dreaming about. 


    Friend: That sounds like of fun. 


    Justina: It can be. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    I mean that makes budgeting sound fun. 


    Justina: Yeah, it can be, it can be, it can be such a pleasure for someone who is also an event designer, which I am. I come from a background in art. And so the most fun part of my job is designing the weddings and having more money to play around with, to be creative, to think of some beautiful, interesting, new things that we haven't done before does take a lot of funds. 


    So having the ability to do that as such a dream in such a privilege. 


    Friend: You don't have to answer this question, please do, but, um, can you give us a sense for like an average budget? Like I have no concept of like, what is, what is the high end Of the market spending? 


    Justina: Of course. So in a city like New York people spend quite a bit of money. We do have, uh, quite a bit of a luxury market. There is a premium market, which I would say is more than that $75 to $125,000, which is a pretty expensive pocket. 


    Friend: Megan and I are already like, picking our jaws up from the floor. 


    That was premium. Okay. 


    Justina: Yes, that's premium. Um, the luxury market is really $150 and above, so that can go even higher. 


    Megan: I just got full body chills. I have a rash. 


    Friend: That's like the down payment on a very, very nice place. 


    Justina: Yes, we, we do typically work with budgets between, you know, 75 to 200,000 is sort of the meat and potatoes of my business. But, we have gone higher and we have occasionally done some budgets for smaller events that are lower. Your budget is not necessarily indicative of the type of venture you're going to have. If you have 20, 40 people and you're still spending $50,000. 


    Friend: Okay. That is iluminating. 


    Justina: Yes. 


    Friend: if it's okay. Can we shift and just talk about your money for a bit, like as much as you're comfortable. I do have to advise you that we are on a recorded line and this conversation may be used for training purposes. Don't you love it. when they say that when you call the bank? 


    Megan: And you're like, I called help from a professional, like help, someone. 


    Friend: Okay. So did you have a chance to look at the graphics that we shared? The, the grid and the scale? Just wondering where you would place yourself on either of those whichever speaks to you. 


    Justina: Yeah. I think if I were to choose, a corner of your graphic, there would probably be more of the creative expression splurger. I tend to be an emotional spender, and I am much more of a logical saver now than I ever used to be. It's definitely shifted over the years. But I think I'm, I'm very willing to splurge on things that matter to me and that are important. 


    So that's really where I'm sort of stuck in a lot of ways, is that splurging, but not splurging on like designer handbags. It's more like I buy all the organic vegetables and get very excited about it. So, 


    Friend: And you do live like a block from whole foods. 


    Justina: yes, exactly. So I, I go to the good stores. 


    Yep. 


    Megan: I feel like when we talked about it, when I was interviewed about this exact same question, I was, my answer was the same, very similar, because it's like a micro splurge, right? Like you're splurging on what matters to you, but it's like my $6 latte to someone is probably not a splurge. You know? Like, it's like your version of extremity. 


    Justina: Right. Yes, exactly. I think little extravagance or kind of more exciting sometimes like that quality of life is where I want to be spending my money, if at all possible, sometimes the bigger things just seems so unattainable or you attain them and then it's somehow deflating and disappointing. Cause it's just so expensive to the point where you were just mostly sad. 


    You spent the money and not about the thing you spent the money on. 


    Megan: Totally. 


    Friend: All right. Cool. Thank you. We're just mapping that out over time with all of our guests and seeing if we see any patterns and you know, if anyone feels the need to come back and tell us later that they moved quadrants. 


    Justina: Yeah, I hope I do move quadrants, that would be very exciting for me. 


    Friend: I don't think there's a right quadrant to be in, especially when I hear you both talk about the way that you're splurging. 


    Like I think that's a very rewarding space to be in. Right. So 


    no judgment on the quadrant. 


    Justina: Thank you. Yes. 


    Friend: so in terms of, managing finances, do you manage the finances of your own business do you outsource that? 


    Justina: I outsource some of it. So I have software that helps me keep track of transactions and client payments, invoicing, things like that. But I do sort of look it over and I have some outside support to sort of, look through everything and make sure I'm doing it correctly. And, but I do all my invoicing still. 


    I sort of enjoy understanding that part of my business and trying to keep track and because we have a small amount of clientele with larger transactions. Not so much like another small business that we have to outsource that, 


    Friend: Right, That's probably feels good to stay on top of it too, to know exactly. Like if you can afford to upgrade your zoom 


    Justina: Yes. Exactly. Yeah. All the little expenses. Yes. Now not the most glamorous part of my job and not the part that I love doing but part I still make time for. 


    Friend: All right. Cool. I want to make sure we leave time for a Megan here and don't talk about money the whole time. But just, you know, another maybe interesting one for listeners who don't live in New York or would love to, and think it's just so expensive. How do you afford to live and run a business in one of the most expensive cities in the world? 


    Justina: Yeah, that's such a, that's such a great question. I think if I had looked at finances more carefully before I started my business, knowing how expensive New York is, I may never have started because the reality of how expensive it is to live here and not knowing how much money is going to come in, but also not understanding how expensive it is to run a business. 


    I mean, just taxes alone for people who are self-employed, health insurance, all the things that you sort of need to set up for yourself. If you're running your own business and not traditionally employed by employer is staggering and very challenging to balance. But I would just say that for me, balance is where I find comfort and manage my stress is just sort of compromising where I feel I can compromise because everyone is compromising in New York. 


    Unless you're in that upper upper tier, no one is sort of living their best happiest life, spending all the money that they could ever wish. I don't always have the same amount of funds that my clients do. So, you know, I'm not living as glamorously as they are. Some of the time. I'm very happy to help them create the most gorgeous event or wedding that they will ever have if they wish. 


    And that's my job, but for me, Living here is the dream. And I, I love every part of it, all the opportunities that it affords me. And so I'm happy to splurge on fancy groceries, but cut back on other little things, like I take the Metro everywhere. I walk a lot. I'm happy to not be in a super fan of Uber. 


    So I do all the little things that I can to cut back where I feel I can comfortably cut back. And, that is where I sort of draw the line for myself of being able to stay here and live comfortably in whatever definition that means to me. I know for everyone, their level of comfort might be a little bit more vacations or it might be more upgraded services or whatever it is that they have in their buildings, or, you know, complimentary things that they love in their lives. 


    But for me, it's just sort of a holistic balance of trying to figure out where I can cut back as well to make sure that I'm, I'm happy in my life. And that's the goal is just happy, not super rich, necessarily. 


    Friend: Smart. It sounds, it sounds like you're making some, you know, the decisions you need to, to make it work and that's smart. 


    Justina: That's what I would advise to anyone. Just trying to figure out where you're gonna compromise. I think New Yorkers know that very well. We all have to find apartments and nobody loves every single apartment that they visit. And there's always something wrong with it. And you learn to love that apartment because it's your apartment and you're happy there and you can afford it. 


    Kind of how you make all your decisions in New York, little by little. 


    Friend: Yeah, how you survive. All right. One last one for me. What is the measure of success for you when it comes to your business or your finances? How do you measure success? 


    Justina: Yeah. I think historically for me, money has not been a measure of success. I don't look at my business as needing to make X amount of money in order to be successful. It's always great to make more money in your business because you're successful and you're doing a great job and being able to afford other things in your life is absolutely wonderful. 


    And it's great if we can grow your wealth, especially as a woman, but my measure of success in my business is always making my clients happy and, and leveling up my business in ways that I never expected I would. So being able to create something new; design a new type of event; create a new experience for a client, at the end of the day, just making them happy and knowing that I had a large part in creating that happiness in that brand new start to their life in a wedding is all I really need to continue. Money is great. And I will always be able to sort of balance all of that and make sure that I'm doing a good job. But for me, the success really comes from the satisfaction I have in the work I do and why I'm going to continue to be in this business as long as I want. 


    Friend: That's awesome. Thank you. Thank you for talking about the money side with me. 


    I appreciate that. 


    Megan: I feel like it wasn't as scary as you might thought it would be. 


    Justina: No, it wasn't a 


    totally wasn't. 


    Megan: It's like you think about these questions. And then you'd look back and you think of maybe what you would have answered as like a younger person and how terrifying the questions might've felt then and now are like, well, you know, I guess it's time to talk about it. 


    So this is good. 


    Justina: Yes, absolutely. 


    Megan: loved your success answer. That's really illuminating because there's like such a, there is such a balance there, so was such a great answer. Okay. So we're going to hit the artist side of your brain 


    we have depleted the other side, hopefully. I have always wanted to know how do you, so I'm an abstract painter. 


    I don't take anything concretely and turn it into something in a step-by-step process. Right? My brain just doesn't compute that way. But so in your line of work, how do you take like a Pinterest board or your own mental image or your own like dream based on observations and turn it into an actual reality? 


    Justina: that's such a good question as well. I think because I've always been. A visual person and a visual learner. I've always, really thrived off of images and pictures, even in grade school, to facilitate and kind of learning that I have, that I've created a process of trying to understand what I'm seeing visually and then sort of go back to my computer and a lot of research and I do a ton of research. That's really a key part of my business is just that I'm always interested in learning and understanding what it is that I'm seeing. And I'm interested in understanding the process of my vendors. So for example, when I first started my business, I was terrified. 


    I thought, you know, I don't know how I'm supposed to do this thing that I don't know how to do, because I was very excited to do it, but I didn't actually physically know how to do it or mentally or emotionally invest in all of this. So I decided that I needed to understand everyone else's jobs first. 


    So I talked to photographers, I talked to makeup artists. I talked to cake designers. I took a cake decorating class. 


    That was one of. Most comical and deceivingly hard classes by the way that you would ever imagine. But I felt a lot of interest and satisfaction from understanding what that world looked like so that I could help manage it and I could help understand their limitations or all the work that goes into it, not just to understand their pricing and things like that, but also to help advise my clients as to what it is that they were choosing and how they were going about planning the event little by little. 


    So when I'm doing something like events, I'm looking at a lot of different images of what other people have done before, because Pinterest is just full of lots of inspiration. And it's such a wonderful tool for visual interest, but trying to create something new from that means really taking a lot of that. Um, and luckily we have some new technology now that the event industry never had, that is similar to a CAD program for an interior decorator, but we do have programs now that help you actually visualize what it is that you are creating. 


    So it's more of a 3d model of tables and chairs and floral arrangements. And it's not going to be as nuanced as something brand new and the exact flowers and exact colors, but it does help walk yourself and your clients through an event design, especially when you're walking into a room. So that helps enormously and kind of helping me when I'm designing as well. 


    Megan: I think the process is so cool. I think it's so interesting. I can't, I can't like imagine step one through 1 million. You know, like there's so many parts, you know, so wild. Okay. What would you say to a creative person or an aspiring artist who would like to get into your world or who perhaps maybe doesn't want to become a wedding professional, but wants to approach a luxury 


    market. 


    Justina: I guess my biggest piece of advice would be to, to research that industry as much as you can, but also get out in front of it, not stay behind your computer. There's only so much you can do when you're just researching and looking at images and pretending you understand something that you haven't experienced. 


    So experience is very valuable and that's one piece of advice that I didn't take really for myself because I was in my late twenties and stubborn and I, I was changing careers and I absolutely did not want to interrupt for someone or shadow anyone. I didn't have a big ego about it, I knew I had a ton to learn, but the artist in me didn't want to copy someone else's work. I wanted to discover what it was like for myself, but that said there's so much value in understanding what that world just looks like to begin with and understanding visually, what it looks like. Experience, you know, the actual pieces that come together, especially on an event day, because it can be very fast paced, very stressful, very difficult to understand. 


    I have had various assistance throughout the years and I had another brand new one last year. One of my events assistants and she was just so taken back by how hard it was. And she had always wanted to be in the wedding world and was so excited about it. But she had been working, you know, for a while. 


    And she said that working a wedding was the hardest she's ever worked in her entire life. And she just had no idea how hard it was and how difficult and. She was really complimentary to me, which was so kind about my calm, because I get told a lot that I'm just very calm during the most stressful times, which I take a lot of pride in because I am. But it comes from years of experience of understanding that this is the world I signed up for. And there are many, many messy moments and difficult moments. And my job is to help piece it back together. If it falls apart temporarily and make sure that we're, we're moving along and we're doing our best, they're not perfect. 


    It's sort of any performance is not perfect. You know, it's almost like we're putting on a Broadway show and we hope it's perfect. You know, some nights it's not, and we just kind of keep moving along as best we can. So I try to keep that in mind and, I try to show my events assistants what that world is like and give them a realistic view of it. 


    But until you're there until you're at the event, until you understand how those little pieces come together behind the scenes, into the event day, it's very hard to understand what it is that you're sort of walking yourself into. So I would say that experience is so invaluable. And also just knowing that you can handle stress because the luxury world does involve a lot of high expectations. 


    And when you're dealing with a lot of money, people expect a lot in return, which they should, you should absolutely expect a lot for your money. You know, if you're buying a bag from Marshall's and it falls apart, you may not be that surprised or disappointed, but if you're buying one from Chanel, you expect that Chanel is going to stand by in that bag and it's gonna last you a lifetime. 


    So I think that's important to keep in mind. 


    Megan: Okay. A little bird told me Justina, 


    Justina: Yes. 


    Megan: that you're into an art form of your own. 


    Justina: Am 


    Megan: I? 


    Yeah, you're an artist. 


    You're doing a thing. A nail artist. 


    Justina: Yes. 


    Megan: What's going on? Is this just like a little, is this your unicorn space? 


    Justina: Yes. Unicorn space has popped up on all my event pages now. So 


    Megan: Yeah. It's the new, it's the thing. 


    Justina: I have always loved nail art and my mother was horrified as a child thinking I was going to go into this professionally, after all the enormous amount of money that she spent on my schooling, But, I loved the creative expression of nail art. I loved even when I couldn't physically do it and pull it off as a young kid, I loved how interesting other people's nails were. And I grew up in an area, the city where a lot of women had interesting nail art. And so I was always just staring at everybody's hands and looking at it. And I started to dabble in it when I had some time off years ago. And just try to, you know, learn the actual practice of nail art, which was just fun. 


    And it was an amateur skill that I had. And then when I started doing events, I realized that it put me in such a great mood to have my nails done. As a lot of women feel it's just so much fun to have very smooth, shiny glittery nails. It's become a thing people enjoy and I began to think that it would be so much more fun if my nails actually matched my events. 


    Megan: my That's so cute. 


    Justina: I started to sort of get into the mood and it started with the traditional, like red Bordeaux color for, you know, a winter wedding and, you know, a white nail. And, you know, I just started with the basics and then I started adding a little bit more design and then it just kind of builds from there. So now I really try to take a little element of my events and I try to add it to my nails and I spend a little bit of money getting my nails done by women who really know what they're doing, and supporting some local salons in my area. And it, it just kicks it up a notch for me. It sort of clues me in, I use my hands all day long sometimes. 


    To the point where spending all this money to nails is so silly because I'm ripping up boxes and opening up candles, and I'm doing all kinds of things on event days that you need your hands for. But looking down at my hands and sort of feeling a little more polished, if you will gives me so much pleasure and fun. 


    Megan: What a good nail pun! 


    Friend: Like part of your, part of your work dress. 


    Justina: Yes. It's part of my uniform. 


    Friend: Do people notice, do guests and brides and vendors that do they notice that you're on, you know, on brand with the event? 


    Justina: They do. Yes. Usually I have a few people notice, during an event day it's usually the couple or the bride, or sometimes somebody I'm working very closely with for the day, but it always just puts a little pep in my step and I'm always just so I'm so excited, sort of a pre wedding or event day ritual that I really enjoy. 


    It's a me time that I can have. And you know, nobody really cares what the wedding planner looks like because you're sort of behind the scenes, but I take so much pride in my appearance and I was raised by a woman who always taught me to dress for the job you really want. And I am in the job I really want. 


    So instead of wearing a suit all day, I wear, you know, very beautiful black clothing that is very elegant and polished, and I want to look like someone who's running the show, but I also want to add a little, a little bit of me in there and a little bit of pizzazz. So you'll always see 


    me in a black dress and some fancy nails. 


    Friend: I love it. 


    Megan: That's so cool. It's super unique, but it's also like when you said you looked down at your hands, like you're doing so much work, but it's such a good reminder too. It's like so symbolic, some deep stuff. 


    Now we're going to do a little rapid fire. 


    Are you ready? Okay. The tinier the answer the better, but I will also understand if you have to go on a tangent because sometimes I do that. 


    Friend: We can't follow our own advice. 


    Megan: Because you've met me and you know, there's no, yes or no answer. 


    Justina: Yup. 


    Megan: Ready? Dogs or cats. 


    Justina: Dogs. 


    Megan: Oh, good job. 


    Do you have a dog? 


    Justina: I don't. I want one it's in the works. It's in the budget. Exactly. 


    Megan: Next one is a hard one for women of our age, but Tik Tok or Instagram? 


    Justina: Instagram, not, not a Tik Tok girl. 


    Megan: It gives me anxiety. Tea or coffee? 


    Justina: Coffee. 


    Megan: A lot. 


    Justina: A lot. over the scale. 


    Megan: How many cups a day? 


    Justina: I've gotten it down to two and I do still drink tea. I enjoy tea. I think tea is very beautiful, but it will never replace my coffee. 


    Megan: No, no, no, that's ridiculous. Wine or a cocktail? 


    Justina: Wine. 


    Megan: Red or white? 


    Justina: Ooh, that's a tough one. I do like both. That's a tough one. It depends on the type, right? I'm a very snobby wine drinker. 


    So if you give me a Chardonnay, I would rather have some water. That is how I feel about that. 


    Megan: And that is the title of our episode. Thank you very much. We're done here. Okay. Mountains or beach? 


    Justina: Beach definitely. 


    Megan: Gold or Navy. Yeah, definitely. Your, your shiny lady, what was your worst subject in school? 


    Justina: Geometry. It's so embarrassing, but it was geometry. I absolutely detested geometry. 


    Megan: We're doing a whole episode on like us, as women being told we were about at math in high school. So stay tuned for that. 


    Friend: So we'll call you. 


    Megan: Hey, guess what? You're also bad at math. 


    Friend: I was actually thinking that when you were talking about the budgeting for the clients and how very practical that is, like, that's not scary to do wedding budgets. You're just dividing up a pie And deciding how big the pieces are. 


    Megan: And I was like, how old they should be teaching math in school. It's not like it doesn't matter. It, it could just be like how to deal with your finances. Any anyhow, what was your favorite book? Don't make me cry. 


    Justina: Yeah, no, I can't. That, that was just all I ever wanted to read. It was the first book that made me feel something, you know, really just like excited about life. I know that sounds so corny, but it's true. I just was like, wow, this is family. This is like, you know, I really dove into that world and it's always been such a special special book to me. 


    Megan: Love it. 


    Your favorite artist living or dead? 


    Justina: Georgia o'Keeffe. 


    Megan: Oh, 


    love her. That totally matches your vibe. Cause it's like elegant lady, like peaceful, 


    all the things. 


    Friend: Can you tell us about it so we can put it in the show notes. 


    Justina: Yeah, this is, the White Calico flower by Georgia. O'Keeffe it's at the Whitney museum, or at least it's in their permanent collection. And I just, I love it. It's it's very nuanced. It's almost sort of, like a mono graphic. So it, it really is just like nuanced shading. 


    And I just think it's so beautifully done. I could stare at it forever. It makes me so calm and it feels so peaceful. And I have such a, a large affection for Georgia. O'Keefe, I can look at her paintings and always get something from them. So I, yeah, I've been a long time fan of her work since I was a little girl. 


    Megan: Again, totally on brand for you. 


    Last one, best restaurant in New York City? 


    Justina: It's impossible. 


    Megan: I know that was a trick question. 


    Justina: I can't choose a restaurant because I've been a lifelong New Yorker. And one of my favorite things about New York is always trying somewhere new and always being surprised and, New York's also like that where this is my tangent answer, by the way. You're welcome. 


    Megan: No, I love It. 


    Justina: One of my favorite things about New York is that it's always evolving. I mean, there are restaurants that are not here anymore that were here a few years ago that have been here for a long time. We're always having new restaurants pop up and the newest, coolest thing and the newest Poke restaurant and Mac and cheese restaurant and things like that. 


    But you can go to a restaurant and have a bad experience and go back and have an amazing one and then go back again. And it's terrible. I mean, it's hard to have that consistency in New York to the point where you would say like, this is my favorite restaurant in New York. I of course have neighborhood favorites and things like that. 


    Interesting things like Blue Hill that always surprise you and have such interesting things. But honestly, I think my, one of my favorite things about restaurants is just a really beautifully done meal. That's not something I could ever cook at home that is like all I really need to make me cozy and happy. 


    And I don't need food with a tweezer. I'm not that kind of girl. I don't need to go home hungry after a meal. I but I just went to Eataly this week, to their bar Milano and had the most luscious. And I would only use that word luscious pappardelle. 


    It was just, it was like beautifully done. I have no idea it wasn't a sauce and it was filling, but it was delicate. And I was like, this is just my happy place. I had wine. I did have one with it. It was just a very happy, happy night. And I can't cook that at home. You know that to me, that's all I need is. A really beautifully made meal with a lot of love. And, I'm happy girl. It's very good. I highly recommend it. 


    Megan: All right. Some New York City intel. 


    All right. We have a last question for you, the former teacher in me wants to know what homework assignment would you assign for us and our listeners? So on our episodes, we kind of like to explore something further. In the finance for the art world, or like maybe you have a suggestion for the people out there? 


    Justina: Yeah. When I was trying to explore my own financial wellness and understand it I listened to some other podcasts and blogs and things like that. And I definitely believe that women should talk about money more. I think the more transparent we are, the better it's hard. I did not grow up talking about it. 


    So it's definitely been an evolution for me as well. So I think the more transparent we can be about how other people budget and how other people's. Sort out their finances, but also improve them. It's hard to actually just get unstuck or know what you're supposed to do next and kind of follow that ladder or pathway to a better quality of life and more peace of mind in general. But, I'm interested in the emotional side of money and why people are just so stuck, struggling with shame and why it's hard for us to get past those, those difficult moments for ourselves, whether it's from our families that we grew up with and our personal finances from our parents and what we were sort of experiencing to coming to grips as a child and an adolescent, knowing that your peers have different amounts of money in their families. 


    I think that was such an interesting thing. And that might go a little bit more into psychotherapy. So you might need a third partner here for your podcast, but, I do think that like that side of it to me is just so fascinating and interesting, and I'm interested in like, why some people just kind of see money very logically and other people are very emotional about it and struggle to understand how to, to do those things. 


    I went to a liberal arts college and a lot of my peers while we loved the college. So, so much just wish that someone had just senior year, instead of talking about these critical thinking skills sat down and helped us budget for a household, you know, gave us some, some very hard skills that we can take away and feel as competent adult. 


    We can move forward with and feel some some balance. I think that's just a life skill that every single person should have. 


    And I definitely. Some, some research into how other people have over come that difficulty talking about money would be interesting but, maybe sort of getting to the heart of why people have difficulty with money and trying to trace back to that moment where they became a little more aware of the fact that money was such an important part of your life. 


    Whether you knew that from the beginning or you grew up in a family with a lot of money, or I find that a lot of my finance and banker friends just have such a better handle on sort of a pathway to understanding money than a lot of others. But I also know people in the finance industry that never had that in their own families. 


    They've only gotten it from work. And so I think trying to understand where you are in that journey and where you want to be as, as a good way to, to feel a little bit more peace of mind and understanding about it in general. 


    Friend: That's a tough one. That's like self-reflection. 


    Justina: Yes that's. 


    Megan: it's just so important as you said with women, especially that we just buckle down and say like, okay, this is a weird, awkward conversation, but we're going to have to just do it. 


    Justina: Yeah. 


    Megan: You know, like it's time. 


    Friend: One thing I would say, Justina to your credit. That is another thing I love about you, is, is just this, like when we go for dinner or have a drink, go for a walk, you don't mind getting into it. Like we talk about money, yours, mine, you know, the business, and I think that is part of what there's a connection there that provides for us a level of connection that is not surface level. And I, I appreciate that in your willingness to go there. it's awesome. So thank you. 


    Justina: Oh, yeah. No, it's it's, I think it's important, but it's also I'm on that journey too. I'm trying to figure. Had to be less emotional about money. I'm trying to understand that sometimes money is there and sometimes money is not there. And there is a lot of struggle that we all have and how are you spend our money. 


    And we always want more of it because it allows us to do certain things or achieve more for ourselves or our families. So it's, it's something I'm always working to understand better as well, but also. Not put too much pressure on myself. You can only do so much to improve your situation day to day, but little improvements will hopefully lead to some more bigger improvement down the line and a happier life moving forward. 


    Megan: Totally. I love that. 


    Friend: I love it. 


    Megan: Self awareness is your homework assignment. 


    Justina: Yes, self-awareness. 


    Megan: General and financial. All right. Well, that'll be, um, 100 weeks till our next episode, because that takes a while. Thank you for buying us some time. No, but in all seriousness, thank you for being with us today. This was fabulous. We love you. 


    Where can people find you on the internet? 


    Justina: Yes. I am on Instagram so you can find me there. I'm posting some fun stories and images for my events. I'm on Instagram at Fitting Fetes that's our company Fitting Fetes on my website, fitting fettes dot com. 


    Friend: All right, good. And we'll link to you in the show notes. So people who do not speak French will we'll find that easier. Fetes is French for party. 


    Justina: Yes. Thank you. 


    Friend: This was so great. Thank you. Justina 


    Justina: You're welcome. This was so fun. I'm so glad you guys are doing this. 


    Megan: It's like a fun little conversation because it's kinda like it's a little sweaty, you know, you're 


    like, Ooh, we're doing it. But also like, wow, that was illuminating. 


    Justina: Yeah, it's good. 


    Megan: Cut. 


    Friend: That was so decisive. That was like, 


    Megan: It's like, so it feels so good. 


    Friend: All right. We're almost done the show for today. I would just say Megan, that I'm feeling a little challenged by the homework from Justina today. That was, know, I think she's pushing us. 


    Megan: She is one of those people that is mysterious to me because she is graceful petite, but extremely commanding. And so like, you literally can't judge the book by its cover, which I just love. Right. She's like, oh, casually mentioning these humongous numbers. And we're like, excuse me, like, who are you? You know? So I just think we need to like, take a step back, even just anyone in any business. 


    Just take a step back and realize what you're doing and listen to yourself talk sometimes, because I don't think she realizes how powerful she is. 


    Friend: Well, even if she does, she's so humble about it, that she wouldn't dwell on it. 


    Megan: It was mind blowing. Love her. 


    Friend: Yeah. All right. Well, that brings us to the end of this episode. Thank you so much to Justina for joining us. We had an illuminating discussion on the ins and outs of being a New York super fancy successful event planner. 


    And, we hope that hearing about her experience, working with clients and managing her own finances was interesting, and, as it was to us, a good challenge. As always, for listening to The Arts. 


    Megan: And be sure to come back next week for a discussion on a topic that my friend here says is really important, but I am personally terrified. Until then, this is Megan of Art by Megan. 


    Friend: And her friend, your patron of the arts. 


    Megan: Wishing you more art. 


    Friend: And maybe, a better understanding of your money. 


    Megan: This meeting is being recorded. 


    Friend: Okay. 


    Megan: All right, let's do the show open for episode six. 


    Friend: Yes. On today's 


    Megan: volume down. I'm sorry. Let's try it one more time. I'm so happy though. I sound better. Carry on. 


    Friend: fantastic. But Megan's ready. So now we're ready now. We're now we in business. 


    Megan: My favorite question, which is sort of like the background behind this podcast is me just blurting out to 


    Megan: What do you do all day? 


    Friend: And if you say 


    By the way, we'll just, it's So, hard. What we'll do is we'll I think we're going to bleep, or we'll just, 


    Megan: let me just rerecord, I'm going to do it one more time. 


Third and Fourth
Episode 005 - Risk-Taking

Megan wrestles with a huge business decision and takes a risk, the payoff for which includes some much-need alone time (and plenty of croissants) in Paris.

Listen, follow and review us on your go-to podcast directory: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | Google Podcasts

Show Notes

  • Beautiful Country by Qian Julie Wang

    Homework:

    For the artists in the room: make a list of the categories of risk that you face as an artist or creative entrepreneur. If you can identify them, you can manage them.

    For the bankers in the room: write down three things you risk by not making time for art/beauty/creativity.

    We would love to hear from you! Email us your questions and ideas at podcast at artbymegan dot com

  • Arts 005 - Risk Taking 


    Megan: Let's do this. Episode Five, Risk Taking. 


    Friend: Welcome to The Arts, a brand new podcast about art and money. I've spent my career managing at some of the world's largest financial institutions. So I can't tell you my name, but trust me, talking about money is my jam. 


    Megan: And I'm Megan, I'm an artist and a teacher. And now co-host of this amazing podcast. We're having this conversation because we came to a realization. We have no idea how the other person spends her workday. 


    Friend: Or her money. So let's chat about it. 


    Megan: Hey friend, how are you? How was your week? And what are you thinking about these days? 


    Friend: Uh, summer. 


    Megan: Seriously. 


    Friend: All right. On today's show, we're super excited to dive into something both glamorous and terrifying for most of us: risk-taking or more specifically, I'm going to ask Megan here all about her recent show in Paris and how she came to the decision to take the plunge on taking such a huge step in her business this is going to be good. 


    You ready? 


    Megan: Bring it on. 


    Friend: All right. Let's get started. The Scene. So what's new with you? 


    Megan: Oh, well this episode has some juicy bits in it, so I'm not going to talk actually about what's happening, but I'm going to tell you something else. Okay. Read a book. This is like the new thing. Megan, read a book. I'm on a book 


    Friend: I'm going to send you on assignment to see a gallery so we can get like - people are not going to have time in between episodes to read all your books. How do you even have time? 


    Megan: I don't know how I read these books. I think I'm just ignoring everyone, but it's fine. There'll be okay. okay. You have to read this book. It's called Beautiful Country. The author is Qian Julie Wang. It's a memoir of her childhood, moved from China to Brooklyn, New York. And oh my God. First of all, I think we're Instagram friends. I don't want to brag, because I'm obsessed with her. And I told her on Instagram and she's coming on our show. No, but I'm obsessed with it. She is beautiful, beautiful way of writing. I've written, I've written, I've written zero memoirs, but I have read a lot of memoirs and this one really, like, I can't stop thinking about it. 


    I liked her way of time travel. She encapsulated memory in a such an interesting way. And it does tie into art for me because I have nothing in common with her, but the ability to be transported into her world is literal hashtag goals. Right? Like I want people to feel that way when they look at my art. 


    So I was like the whole time, wondering how do you do this? But without words, like my world is not with words, but hers is, and I was like, this is captivating. 


    Friend: Yeah. she must have a command in order to transport you that way. That sounds awesome. 


    Megan: Yeah. Mailing you a bunch of books or probably just delivering them to you in person. 


    Friend: Um, please the latter. I love books, but I love it when you come more. 


    Megan: I'll mail myself. 


    Friend: Yeah, please. I mean, it wouldn't cost that much. 


    Megan: No... 


    I'm over the limit. Actually. Trust me, I'll just buy a train jacket, like a normal person. What's new. Tell me things. 


    Friend: Alright. Well, I did a little research of my own inspired by your recent trip. So I was, I got to thinking about the logistics and the cost, from an economic perspective, financial perspective of these art shows, you know, you have collectors and curators and artists flying around to all these shows. And I wanted to see what was happening. Like is there an alternative to that coming in the virtual world or in the digital world? 


    And, what's the future state? If any that we are aware of yet of these art shows, you know, how, how might they be digitized? And it was interesting there certainly the pandemic probably escalated that. It will be interesting to see over the next couple of years, if we just go back to a normal or if we actually go, no, you know what, I really want something digital. I want something that I, I don't have to physically see, that can move with me. I'm not sure. I don't know if that's scary as an artist to think about us moving away from the physical, but 


    Megan: I mean, it's worth thinking about. 


    Friend: I'm thinking about. it, but I'm not sure I like it. Also I'm still looking at kind of related to this is cryptocurrency plus NFTs, non fungible tokens. And, you know, this is an interesting intersection of art and finance. So, that, that one it needs more expertise. 


    Megan: Yes. I was explaining to my daughter what an NFT is and I was like, you know, fungible. And she was like, please stop talking. And like her direct pre-teen vibes on it. I was like, yeah, I know. I agree. All right, we're done. So, yeah, I mean, I love your brain. That's like my ultimate compliment. Let's just, just keep churning out some ideas. 


    That's great. 


    Friend: I would rather a compliment on my brain than pretty much anything else. It's the one part of me that I think, has gotten better with age. 


    Megan: I mean, 


    Friend: All right. There's no, um, there's no good segue. 


    Megan: No. 


    Friend: We should just get going. Alright. 


    the Main Exhibit. So risk-taking, let's tackle it. You recently took a risk and you went to Paris, like a baller to show your work at an art show. What!? 


    Megan: Yeah. I mean, when you say that I'm literally, my hands started sweating. I was like, no, I did it. It wasn't like a week passed, has passed. I'm like, Megan, this isn't fictional. You know, it was wild. It was well, we'll get into it, but I'm not a risk taker. 


    Friend: All right. Let's get into it. Let's start with the basics. Uh, You know, I love doing that. You ready? 


    Megan: Yes. 


    Friend: Okay. 


    Two easy questions just because I wasn't really certain and I didn't know how to ask. So what kind of show was it and how does one end up at a show? Like this? 


    Megan: Okay. This is a very good question because the art world is full of confusing gatekeepers. We've mentioned gatekeepers in the past. There are many ways to sell art. You can work with a gallery exclusively. You can be represented by people as I do non exclusively. So I just pop in and out, but I don't sign with a gallery at this point because traditionally a gallery takes a percentage of your sales. 


    And what I prefer to do is to work with people short-term and then sell my art mostly the majority of my work is sold directly through me so that I keep the commission 100%. That being said, I don't get the exposure that I want always from my own marketing efforts or from my own network or my own reach. 


    Right. So when I sit down and think of this as a business person, there are reasons to work with people who take a commission, or there are reasons to work with people who maybe my profit won't be super high, but, when am I ever going to bring all my art to Paris? Like this one was a no brainer. So for this show specifically, it's called an art fair. Art fairs work many different ways. 


    I've dealt with a couple of different ones now, but for this one, specifically, a gallery approached me. I paid a fee to work with them. 


    Friend: Like a flat fee? 


    Megan: Yes. It was like a, basically an upfront commission. And then they agreed to try and sell the work and there's like a contract that goes with it and how long they'll keep the work. 


    And they're based out of Madrid, but they were at a show in Paris. And for me personally, just based on my own preferences and my own life trajectory, I want to have a presence in both Madrid and Paris. For like life, but also for fun, like that's where I want to go. So it was a payoff in both ways. 


    Friend: Right. Okay, cool. 


    Megan: Pretty crazy. 


    Friend: Yeah, no, that's cool. I wanted to make sure that we weren't talking about a craft show. 


    Megan: Well, I think the structure is similar. I honestly do, because I think people buy a booth. Yeah. There's like big craft fairs in New York. Like the Javits center has like all these people that come in and show their work, but I don't know if you buy direct to consumer at those things, right? So someone could walk up to these galleries. 


    There were 30 galleries, but 60 total booths at this art fair. Some were artists just representing themselves. And some were galleries representing many artists. At the fair, a client can come up to the artist or to the gallery and say, I'd like to buy that painting. 


    Friend: Okay. All right. That reminds me, so you sort of had this coming for you, but when exhibiting at an art show, what do you do all day!? 


    Megan: Okay. The best part about arranging it this way for myself this time is that I don't have to run the booth. 


    Friend: That's what I was wondering. Like, are you standing there, like, "hi, I'm Megan." 


    Megan: I do not love the hi. I'm Meghan. Look at my art vibe. It's just not something that I thrive with, honestly. 


    Friend: To me. It feels like desperation. I've stood at some of these for my own ideas. yes. And it's like, you're just like waiting for somebody to ask you to dance. It's terrible. 


    Megan: You're right. Oh, that just like totally tapped into like grade Megan. Like this height just being like, is anyone tall enough? But also in my opinion, if I, the artists have paid a gallery to help represent me, then it's their job to represent me. Right. So the beauty of this situation was that the gallerists, there were a bunch of employees of the gallery they're 


    Friend: Wait, is that a word? Ga- gallerist? Is that someone who works for a gallery? 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: Oh, okay. 


    Megan: Yeah. Or a person who, just like sits in the gallery and is the attendant. But it can be also the person that like procures the art. Anyways, we can go deep into terminology sometime. My point is I did not have to stand there the whole time, so I treated this as a true vacation. 


    Like I was able to really enjoy Paris, which again is not something that traditionally would come out of my mouth. I love working hard, but I needed to do both. Like I needed this. 


    Friend: That's amazing. So your days were not standing, waiting to be asked to dance. It was like, could you show up and be like, meet the artist and be the event and then step out? 


    Megan: I showed up one evening. They had like a meet and greet for artists and we all met each other and it was lovely. There were artists from all over the world. I now know like artists in Denmark, Iceland, Belgium, Italy, it was like the UN of artists It was wildly impactful. 


    It's just, I'm just like sitting here wallowing in it, but we sat there and like drank champagne together and then put our masks back on and took pictures and then giggled. And then I walked home and I mean, it was a true dreamy moment for me, because I don't often get to celebrate in that way. 


    As the artist there's so much ugly behind the scenes stuff that happens usually. So I'm like, I'm the one mopping at the end of the night at the show, I'm the one locking up. I'm the one in charge. So it was nice to just like topically pop in, be like, I am, I'm a celebrity. 


    Look at me. You know, it felt good. 


    Friend: I'm so pleased to hear that I was imagining it was a little different. All right. Well, we are here to talk about risk and not just Paris. Even though I could do that all day. So the question I have for you is just sort of personally, before we get into any like in-depth risk topics, would you describe yourself as a risk taker? 


    Megan: No, not really. I mean, It depends who you ask. I guess that's like our bandwidth for risk, right? Like our little graphics that we have on our site too where maybe I'm a four, maybe I'm a six. Right. But I was raised by very practical, cautious, responsible people. My parents are extremely practical and I'm sort of like the black sheep in our family, not because people don't like me, but because I'm sort of wild in comparison. 


    And I'm an artist, so I'm just more fluid with my concept, right? Like I'm usually running a little bit late to their standards or other people's, I I'm just like a little bit looser with structure. I'm less formal to the point of like, I don't think I embarrass my family members by any stretch, but I do think that people are like, oh, here she goes again. 


    You know, I'm just like a little bit outside of the box of like practical and cautious, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. I didn't as a child take any risks. I don't think if anyone knew me as a child, who's listening. Hi. But also, I don't think I was known for being like very wild or daring, but I was always willing to try and adventure if I had thought through it first. So I'm like a practical risk taker. Let's not omit the fact that I'm often quite terrified while doing something new. So there's like this constant tug right. Where you're like, I'm going to try this, but will also sweat through my outfit. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: You know? 


    Friend: Yeah, I think that's good. I think that means you're you're at the edge of yourself when you have that tension. 


    Megan: It's hard, but I don't feel for me personally, that there's a different way to do it because I know that I always learn the most when I try something that's out of my comfort zone. So yeah, that's the longest answer ever, but that's to, to summarize, we will use the words of Georgia O'Keefe and she has a famous quote that says "I've always been absolutely terrified every moment of my life. And I've never let it keep me from doing a single thing I wanted to do." 


    And I just feel like that's such a beautiful way to stay to. 


    Friend: Yeah. I like that. I that resonates with me. Just do it scared. 


    Megan: Yeah. I mean, you only get one chance. 


    Friend: Yeah, exactly. I love that. So she was going to come to our dinner party. Right? 


    Megan: Yeah. She's there. 


    Friend: That makes, me think that even if she was terrified by the invitation, she would probably still accept for the dinner party and Madrid. 


    Megan: I can't wait Georgia. Okay. Now hit me with the hard questions. 


    Friend: All right. Let's get going. Okay. So when you talk about risk or taking a risk, what do you mean? 


    Megan: Well, I just want to talk about Paris. 


    Friend: Not getting out of it. We'll talk about Paris, but first I want to talk about risk. 


    Megan: All right. Well, risk to me almost always, when I think of the word risk, my gut reaction is financial. Not because this is a podcast about finances, but because I don't really do physically risky things, right. It's not like I'm like, Ooh, skydiving, but like to risk as a woman and a small business owner and a mom and wife to me, I think the risk is usually doing something where you don't prioritize others. You prioritize yourself and there may or may not be a financial payoff. 


    Friend: Right. Okay. That's interesting. And I, I wanted to talk about this, dive into this a little bit, because I think it's too simplistic when you're talking about making a decision like this, like a business decision, it's not just a go or no go decision. Risk is nuanced. There's lots of different types of risk. And if it's okay, what I would like to do is spend like one hot, second talking about risk from a banker's perspective and then relate it back to the different types of risks that you could take as a business. 


    All right. So financial institutions basically live or die based on their ability to manage risk. And because of that, I think they have subdivided it into these super subspecialties so that when we talk about risk, we know what we're like, which risk. And, and then when, once you can identify a risk, you can work to manage. 


    And we call that mitigation. Right? So it's like, it's kind of like naming your fears, like, or naming your emotions. Like once you can put your finger on it, then you have a better chance of handling it. 


    Megan: Gosh, that's just like a wave of relief. 


    Friend: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's why I think a lot of this is like, you have to go through it. You can't go around it. And so what I'd love to do is give us a way to go through it. For us in, in banking when we categorize it and then deal with it on its own, it breaks it down into manageable pieces. It's just too big and scary if you're just Like we're just going to lend out this money and who knows if it's going to come back or we're going to take on these clients and, you know, the unformed, I think in our minds, it is scary. If banks didn't take risks, the world would stop turning. We need banks to give us credit cards and to give us mortgages, right. And to help us buy cars. We need that. People are not sitting on enough piles of cash that they can buy everything that they want right now. 


    So the banks have had to find a way to make calculated risks. And, what we do then is I'll just give you like a quick sense for how we categorize risks. Like just a few types that we use in the financial world. So we have market risk where, the market can move against you. You've taken a position, things are unpredictable. It moves against you. So how do you manage the movement of the markets? 


    We have reputational risk, which is probably not, like you said, you think about it as relating to finance, but there's also the concept of negative public opinion. So you could take on a deal, take on a client, go into a sector, and then public opinion comes against you. 


    And now you have a problem with your reputation. So how do you manage that? And it's like how do you manage the risk of that in advance? It's not, how do you respond once it's happened? I mean, it is a little bit.. 


    Megan: But that's like PR at that point, like you need to know in advance. 


    Friend: Exactly. This is like getting ahead of it. A good example. Is are we going to fund companies that sell guns or weapons or, right. Cause that is something that would impact our reputation. But credit risk is, in my mind, the pure, loss of money risk. When a lot of us think about risk, it's like, will I lose money? 


    Megan: Short-term or long-term? 


    Friend: Do you mean for a bank or an individual? 


    Megan: I don't know if it matters. So my question, I guess, is is a temporary, what is appearing as an extravagant spend, but will pay off over years? How do you quantify that? Because yes, you will lose money in the moment on this move, but you get clients over the long-term. So it's an investment. 


    Friend: I don't know how to answer that. For a financial institution. I think it goes back to their own guidelines and their risk appetite. They will have modeled it out. And have certain points at which they call it and say, that's enough loss. We have to end it here. And for an individual. I think it depends on how long you can personally afford be in the red, if you started off that way. 


    Megan: And that's like a, that's my constant struggle with spending money on my business. 


    We have to do a whole episode on investment. 


    Friend: yeah, So what the banks do is they model it out. So they say in this scenario, if we lost, if the client defaulted at this point, would we be able to recover? Any of what we, you know, so you're modeling it. You're saying if this happened, what would the effect be if this happened? 


    What would be the effect? You know, if rates change this way, if the price of that equity change this way. So they're running all these scenarios. And I think that's something that is like, you never know the answer, but you can run through scenarios. So if I make this decision and it sells for this much, then I'm good. 


    If it only sells for this, if it never sells. So you kind of look at your options. And then one more, operational risk. So that's like human error, you know, a human made a mistake. So when we talk about risks I wanted to talk to you about a non-bank perspective on this. 


    There would have been a variety of risks that you had to consider when going, making this decision and not just financial. So some that I was thinking about was you would probably also have a reputational risk, right? Like if there's people that are like, I can't believe Megan traveled! 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: It's still COVID you know, something like that. 


    Megan: No, I mean, I've really thought through that because I was like, I don't want to look careless and I don't want to look privileged because this is still so risky pandemic itself is a huge risk. 


    Friend: Yeah. So I'm interested to hear from you, can you identify any other nonfinancial? Like we'll get to the financial, but non-financial were there other considerations there, like human risks that you had to think of? 


    Megan: I mean, the reputation was a big one. What I know from my own little bubble is that people tend to support my choices. I think people understand that I'm a person who thinks through things I'm not like a rash person, even though I might seem carefree. There's a big difference. I think that people who buy my work appreciate the fact that I'm like a decent human. 


    So I don't think that the question of me traveling during the pandemic was anything that would have gone viral, right? Like I didn't look careless about it. I also feel like people are traveling now. I really took a lot of consideration on making this choice, but then I was thinking other businesses are requiring their people to travel 


    so this business. Is now requiring me to travel, right? Like it's like, I have to sort of remove the emotion from that. Of course I took every precaution under the sun to make sure I could go and keep my family safe and all that too. But it was a little bit terrifying if we're being honest, the family, how to run a family remotely is I don't travel much. 


    Right. So I, it was a big undertaking. My husband travels for work and he was laughing because he was like, I don't have to do any of the things you're doing right now when I travel, because he just goes. I was like pre packing lunches and being a psychopath and labeling everything. And not to be like, you know, super type a about it, but like, I know I'm in charge here and everyone needs to remember that. And it was a good reminder. 


    Friend: Like if mama leaves. Y'all are going to be hungry. 


    Megan: Literally, it was four days and I was like, is everyone going to be okay? Like don't over water or underwater, these little house plants, you know, like just keeping one alive, but it worked out fine. Everyone was happy and well fed and Grandma swooped in and it was just like, it required a whole village of backup, which is a commentary on motherhood. 


    Friend: The keeping, of people alive is something you had to factor in when you were making the decision. 


    Megan: Major factors. The other thing that I was worried about is the unpredictability right now. I mean, COVID is one factor, but traveling is unpredictable right now. The world is unpredictable right now. So there's only so much when you're doing these risk analyses. You can't like account for everything, right? 


    Like I can't have a backup plan always, but I can have a decent enough plan, you know? So I was like, I'm going to Paris it's I looked up with all the diplomatic websites and just made sure there's nothing horrific happening at the moment. And yeah. Can you prevent horrible things from happening? 


    Definitely not. Do you hope for the best? Yes. So I I'm at a point in my life where I think I just need to keep living cautiously and this was a good exercise for me in that, but it was risky and, um, stressful. 


    Friend: Yeah, yeah. 


    No, that's good. I think it's good to have this conversation around risks that are not just losing money. The one that I was thinking about for you when we were preparing for this was, I mean, I don't know if this really exists. We don't have these nice and tidy risk categories that I'm aware of outside of finance. 


    But I was thinking of like creativity, risk or productivity risk, like those four days of productivity for you. You didn't bring your paint brushes. It's not like you were painting, right? 


    Megan: No, but, you know what, it was like exactly what my brain needed. 


    Friend: Right. 


    Megan: So I know there's a recipe in my mind for how to get the paintings to come out like that. I have figured out over time and it is travel plus alone time equals huge burst of creativity. 


    And I know that if I don't travel, I'll be a cranky person. It's like people that need to work out, like I need to walk alone. You know, the movie midnight in Paris where he's like, I just want to walk alone in the rain at night and in Paris but I know that those are my factors. So this was like, it was checking a lot of boxes, honestly, if I were to make a little spreadsheet and say like, these needs be met? 


    Creativity was checked for sure. 


    Friend: That's awesome. So that one worked the other way. Cause I was thinking only about the finite, like the number of days of lost productivity. But in fact, what it may have given you was weeks or months worth of inspiration for future productivity. 


    Megan: And so to circle back. That's the financial risk element for me too, because I don't ever know in a moment I don't have a pattern yet because I'm still a young, new business. Who's had to pivot through a lot of weird stuff. Children moving states, starting over, pandemics. 


    Like there's been a lot of change in the last couple of years here, so I don't have a pattern. Can always compute. For example, like rent this space, it will equal this much output or take this international trip. It will equal X amount of sales. That's just not, it's not a way. I don't know if, I don't know if art works that way. 


    I would love to speak to an artist who's wildly successful, always because I want to know the formula. So we have to find someone who can share that knowledge. But at this point in my world, I can't calculate that. 


    Friend: I'm not sure if anybody could. When you're making decisions like this and considering your risks and options, were there other voices in your head and if so, what were they saying? 


    Megan: The voices in my head were telling me what we will cover in a future episode about a letter to our former selves, which is you probably shouldn't do this. Like, what if it's bad? You know, like that scarcity mindset that I'm personally trying to grow out of. But there's no benefit to listen to that voice anymore. 


    So I have to kind of shut her out. 


    Friend: I keep moving. 


    What about, I know that you said like there's no formula, you couldn't piece it all together, but were there other pieces of information, like nonfinancial aspects of this that helped with your decision making? So in another way, what were some of the things that gave you comfort or discomfort when making the decision? 


    Megan: Oh, for sure. So I knew that I had met the people at this gallery. I know that they're reputable. I know that they're lovely. I know that they are in Madrid, which is great for me personally, because I love going there. They sell a lot of work. They represent their artists well, they have good buyers. 


    They have international shows that they participate in. So it's not just Paris. This is like a, a revolving thing there they're in Milan and Luxembourg and like many different destinations doing fairs. So I took into consideration a lot of the factors from the business standpoint, for sure. And then I also thought, as far as networking, just networking alone. So I wrote down if I make $0, is this still worth it? And the resounding answer was yes, because removing all the, " Meghan wants to go to Paris on her own for romping around in the croissants vibes," which was like a heavy part of the Venn diagram. 


    It still was worth it. It was still worth trying something like this so eventually I'll try an art fair in New York City. I haven't tried one yet, and it's worth it's worth trying. Right. So I just had to keep thinking to myself, there weren't many things besides the obvious elephant in the room, which is like of us being terrified about COVID that were telling me don't do this. 


    Friend: So even before we've gotten to the finances, you're in, you're in for it. 


    Megan: It's deeply in there, you know? 


    Friend: What about logistics? Did that become something that you were like. I just can't get my mind around. I was thinking about how do you get your 


    Megan: That's such a good question. Okay. So as you know, I paint in varieties of sizes, but for this show, there was a size requirement because of that factor. And since I was shipping work from basically the furthest away, there were mostly European artists and one woman from Brazil, but she brought small pieces, I had to be, told basically like, don't ship anything huge, but also even that was too expensive, so I unrolled the canvas. I took it off the stretcher bars, which was the rectangle, and rolled it and shipped it rolled to be restretched by the gallery upon arrival, which saves a ton of money. And then I had to research how to send it. So I use DHL, which is like the international shipping service, which was surprisingly fast, super reliable, great for tracking but expensive. 


    So the expenses were high as far as all that, but I think I chose the most affordable way to do it within the parameters. You know, like international shipping is never easy. 


    Friend: But you have to have, I mean, it's a physical product, so you have to get it there. 


    Megan: Yeah, and then, you know, ideally it sells and or someone sees it and knows about me. And then that's the hugest marketing tool. So the marketing budget for my business is pretty big when I look at my end of year spend, but I also use Instagram and that's a free tool. Right. So I need to remember that like many businesses spend a ton of money on marketing and it's usually worth it. 


    Friend: Interesting. I was just imagining you wrestling canvases into your luggage. 


    Megan: No. 


    Friend: They preceeded you. Alright. So, let's talk finances for a brief second. Did you, um, so I know what I would do. I would go like am I going to lose money? Am I going to break even are going to make money? And am I Okay with all three of those, but I don't know, maybe you did it differently. So did it have to be a financial gain? I think from what you've said already, probably no but how, did you weigh the financial result when you were looking at the decision? 


    Megan: One thing that I've tried to train myself to do, which is very difficult as a small business owner is to not expect immediate results. Because when I had a show in November, I wanted to sell. X amount of dollars worth of art during my month long show, I sold about 12 times that. So my point is why quantify it? 


    Because you just don't know what's going to happen, I will tell you that investing in that show in November allowed me to go to Paris. So Paris was paid for, because I had squirreled away the money because I wanted to go so badly. So. I invested in my business. I invested in myself and I, I made sure of it and I prioritized the fact that I really wanted to do this. 


    Should I jump at every opportunity to go to an art fair? No. Should I do this maybe once a year? Yes. Like the risk taking for me is reeling in my enthusiasm and realizing that I need to be able to prepay in cash. I don't really love racking up credit cards. Right? Like. Or by Megan has one credit card and I keep it very low because it makes me literally lose sleep at night if I don't. 


    Right. So my own bandwidth for financial risk was of course involved in this decision, but I also don't go on artists' residencies. I don't, spend a lot of money on a lot of other travel related to my business, So the timing was right. 


    Friend: Yeah. Two of the basic components of looking at profitability or income statements is, what are your overall sales, like what's the top line. And then what did it cost you to make those sales? It's kind of, I mean, that's a rudimentary view of it, but, did you have a sense for what you might sell? 


    Did the organizer give you any sense for what has happened in the past or is it just like blank? You don't know. 


    Megan: Well, the problem right now is that there's no way to know who's going to attend in-person events. 


    Friend: Right. 


    Megan: The end of Omicron this wave had really impacted the attendance at the event. There were many more people than they expected because they had considered this could be a total bust. 


    You know, it was, that was the risk. So knowing that I didn't really go in with very high expectations on sales, because they said. You know, listen, this is a completely out of our control, you know? And like, I just appreciated the transparency there. 


    The fact that they still have my work. 


    So there's opportunities in the future for them to share it with clients or show it or whatever. So, that is fine with me. You know, I didn't need it to sell in that moment, I guess, is what I'm trying to say to you sometimes. What I used to do pop-ups or small shows when I was a baby little beginner artist, I really would be devastated if something didn't sell in that moment. 


    But now I have this ability to see it longer term where I know that the sale could happen in September of this year in Madrid. And that would be, that would be awesome. Right? Like I know that there's longevity here. So I think that I have to remind myself that. Exposure equals sales. 


    It's just not, it's not, immediate satisfaction. 


    Friend: I love that longer-term perspective. It's helpful, even for me to be reminded that it's not so black and white. 


    Megan: Well, some things are right. Like you're selling property. You need it to sell and you need it to sell for this amount, for it to be profitable. Right. if it's something like this, it comes in strange waves and it's hard to quantify. 


    Friend: But on the other side you could do a clear outline of costs. 


    Megan: Oh, yeah. 


    Friend: So what were some of the things that you had to pay for? 


    Megan: Flight, hotel food. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: I mean, of course my husband was like, make sure you're eating. Don't like, don't scrimp on things just because you're afraid to spend money. And I was like, literally like biting into a chocolate croissant while he's texting me as. 


    Friend: Did you have any fabulous meals? 


    Megan: Well. So the funny thing. Again, with the splurging. Yeah. Like I don't really splurge when I'm by myself eating, because I'm not going to eat a big dinner alone and drink a bunch of wine. I feel like food for me is very social. But I splurged on breakfasts. I didn't even splurge. I had like a orange juice and a coffee and a croissant. Like I ate food, I mean the whole thing just felt like a splurge, I guess. 


    Friend: That was great. I know that we, we didn't get into like specific dollars and cents, but I think that's okay. I think we've got a sense for made the decision. Some of the factors that went into it. And in the end, as we know, you took the risk. 


    Megan: Yeah, I think there's something to be said about putting it all together. And now I know that I invested X amount in myself and my business and like that kind of felt good. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: Instead of feeling like I'm spending money. I felt like I was investing money in me and like, it just felt really powerful. I hadn't really done that I don't think ever and I would gladly not buy myself stupid things at Target or, 


    Friend: Amazon or 


    Megan: yeah, you don't need to guilty pleasure yourself constantly. If you could save up and really put some money towards something you've dreamed of doing , that's, it just felt so impactful. 


    So I was like, think I, I think I need this. 


    Friend: Yeah. Hopefully you can make it part of an annual or some regular routine would be good for you. That's awesome. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: Was it worth it? 


    Megan: It was worth it. I met other galleries while I was there. And the funny thing about my world is that in college, I was a Fine Arts and Spanish language and literature double major. I had two separate degrees because I'm an overachiever. And, I just wanted to study everything forever. 


    But when I told people what I was studying, people would laugh and be like, well, how are you going to make any money? And I remember thinking about that constantly because I was like, I don't know that wasn't part of the decision. I chose two things I love and that's what I'm doing. And that's all I have to say, but I had a little chuckle to myself as I was standing at an art fair being represented by a Spanish gallery, speaking Spanish and networking with Spaniards. And I met another gallery in Madrid who was interested in my work. And I was like, you know what? I have my answer now. 


    Friend: Yeah, exactly. 


    Megan: Like the 18 year old me was like, oh, finally, like literally 20 years later here we are with the answer. 


    Friend: Oh, my gosh. That's so, so good. I love time. Doesn't time just make everything make sense!? 


    Megan: It does, because at the time you feel really stupid. I felt stupid having, um, know, not a money plan, but here it's coming to fruition. 


    Friend: It is. As we speak. All right, last question. Next time. Can I come? 


    Megan: Yeah. I guess that was the only thing that was weird. I mean, I needed alone time, but I was like, I like to like decompress my thoughts with friends and family. 


    Travel. 


    Friend: Yeah, I could see both ways would be great. Going alone. Amazing. Going with someone. 


    Megan: Yes, next time. Yes. 


    Friend: Yeah. Cool. All right. 


    Megan: All right. I liked that conversation. It gave me a new perspective on talking about risk, honestly. 


    Friend: Oh, good. Cool. All right. You've taught me also and I like that perspective of like, It's okay if it sells in six months or eight months, you know, I thought that was really cool. 


    One thing I haven't said to you yet, I was thinking about this this morning. I am so proud of you. Like, not that it matters you're you should be proud of yourself and you have all the other voices in your life, but that was a really big decision. And I think a lot of people in the same or similar circumstances would have had all the reasons to stay home and then talked about that time that they almost went to Paris. 


    Aww Megan, thank you. That was awesome. Um, I really appreciate you being transparent about your decision on that one. 


    Megan: Of course. And also we should talk about our homework assignments. 


    Friend: Oh, yes, we almost forgot. 


    Megan: All right. So you go first. 


    Friend: So for the artists in the room, I, think it would be a great exercise to make a list of the categories of risks that you face, as an artist or as a creative entrepreneur. They're going to be customized just for you. Just think through how would you put them into little buckets. 


    And then once you've done that, once you can identify them, you can manage them. 


    Megan: I like that idea a lot, because I think, the risk averse people need a task to make them less risk-averse if that makes sense, you know, I'm not going to just casually think about risk unless told to, so that's nice. It's nice to prompt. 


    Friend: By your friendly neighborhood banker. 


    Megan: Yeah, I need to like, just, you know, do it, and then for the bankers in the room or in the world, write down what you risk by not making time for creativity or enjoying the arts, because I know you've already covered all your risks. 


    Friend: Ooh. 


    Megan: There is something to be said for carving out that time, too. 


    Friend: Oh, I think that's a good one. 


    Megan: For sure. 


    Friend: Cool. 


    Megan: We can't be good at everything. 


    Friend: Well, I am, I don't know. 


    Megan: Just saying, be gentle with ourselves. All right. Well, thank you again. 


    Friend: All right. That brings us to the end of this episode, a conversation on risk-taking. We hope you enjoyed going with us on a little adventure today. 


    Megan: Join us again next week for our discussion with another fabulous New York City boss lady. 


    Friend: Yeah. We're going to talk events and spending other people's money. 


    Megan: The good thing about talking to Justina is that she's really organized. So she'll keep us organized and teach us things. So I just can't wait. Until then. This is Megan of Art by Megan. 


    Friend: And her friend, your patron of the arts, 


    Megan: wishing you more art. 


    Friend: and maybe, a better understanding of your money. 


    Megan: Well, my French: " Au Revoir"

Third and Fourth
Episode 004 - Guest Interview: Kristen Poissant

The Arts welcomes its first guest to the podcast! We interview Creative Director and Brand Strategist Kristen Poissant about following a creative dream and being financially and creatively independent in New York City.

Listen, follow and review us on your go-to podcast directory: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | Google Podcasts

Show Notes

  • Guest: Kristen Poissant

    Follow Kristen on Instagram

    Check out Kristen’s website

    Finding Your Unicorn Space by Eve Rodsky

    Fair Play by Eve Rodsky

    Black American Portraits” at the LACMA

    “Behind the Myth of Benevolence” by Titus Kaphar

    Kaphar’s Ted Talk, "Can Art Amend History?"

    Patrons of the exhibit - interesting story about the couple who made it happen.

    Fact check: NYC is the world’s 6th most expensive city, according to this article.

    Wynken, Blynken and Nod poem / book by Eugene Field

    Homework: Learn more about Tiffany Pratt and her Creative Mornings podcast.

    We would love to hear from you! Email us your questions and ideas at podcast at artbymegan dot com

  • Megan: Okay. We're going to go from the top. Ready? 


    Friend: Ready. 


    Megan: All right. So we're doing episode four. 


    Friend: Welcome to The Arts, a brand new podcast about art and money. I've spent my career managing at some of the world's largest financial institutions. So I can't tell you my name, but trust me, talking about money is my jam. 


    Megan: And I'm Megan, I'm an artist and a teacher. And now co-host of this amazing podcast. We're having this conversation because we came to a realization. We have no idea how the other person spends her workday. 


    Friend: Or her money. So let's chat about it. 


    Megan: On today's show. We're talking about financial independence and taking the leap from corporate life to entrepreneurial bliss, with our super special guest and friend of the show Kristen Poissant. 


    Friend: Yay. I love Kristen so much. We're also going to explore what we've been learning about in The Scene. And we have some homework for our listeners and ourselves. You ready? 


    Megan: Yay. I was born ready. 


    Friend: I'm sure. 


    Megan: So ready. 


    Friend: The Scene. Okay. You know, I'm at the pulse of all things, trendy. I just finished reading Unicorn Space. Have you heard of this book by Eve Rodsky? 


    Megan: Okay. So she's the author of a book called Fair Play, which I haven't delved into too far because it's too close to the pandemic parenting surface. 


    It's about equality in the home. And I'm not sure I want to go there to be honest, because it's not equal. And women have taken on the lion's share of all things, but in this book, Unicorn Space, what is being spoken about is carving out time for yourself as a person, no matter what your day job to pursue something that is for yourself. 


    It's not a hobby. It's not a job. It's not self care. It's like an intellectual pursuit or a completely quote unquote selfish endeavor. What I liked about that is that it talks basically about how we should make a podcast. So I love her ideas. I like her data collection. It's a book that I have to kind of like read in small spurts because it's a little bit of it as like, too deep into women, losing their identities during motherhood and specifically mothering in a pandemic. 


    And I can't dive into that too deep without getting out, you know, but, but I love the idea of. Any human needing an intellectual pursuit. That's not for capitalism and or self care, which I find to be kind of a slippery slope. So anyways, Eve the author, if you're listening JK, I mean, maybe she's listening. 


    We would love to have you on the show sometime because I want to fully debate with her and dive deeper into this world of unicorn space. 


    Friend: Oh, so interesting. I love her too. I think she would be willing. We'll have to see 


    what she says. I saw her speak when Fairplay came out. I also bought the book and gave it as gifts. I'm glad I didn't send it to you because I think that would have been a stressful gift. 


    But I actually think it's a lot of fun. I think the concept, she makes it a game, right? 


    So you're, you're basically like playing with cards and I think it's just like what we're trying to do here, giving a, a way to talk about difficult things. she's provided a way to do that. 


    Megan: Yeah. I think the problem with Fair Play is like when the bottom falls out and one person's job truly does matter more than the others. Like I'm the default parent. Right? So like I had to be the safety net. For all the homeschooling and pivoting and unpredictability. So that was just like, I was like, I can't play this card game where I'm like, you should do more household chores husband, because it's like, it's not an option right now. 


    Friend: Yeah. I think it'd be interesting to ask her that cause that book came out before extreme circumstances. 


    Megan: And I think Unicorn Space is sort of not her like apology, like, sorry, there was a pandemic, but her realizing this conversation evolves, which, you know, I'm totally down with. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: What are you thinking about these days? 


    Friend: Well, I wanted to pick up where I left off in the last episode. I was talking about seeing the Obama portraits in 


    LA, but I didn't want to go on too much. I was very excited and I thought, let me just try to contain this for the next one, split it into two. 


    Megan: The title of my memoir. 


    Friend: and I didn't really get to spend too much time on the complimentary exhibit that was next door to where the Obama portraits were and, how it really impacted me and has haunted me in the time since I was there. This is a moving exhibit, but at least at the LA County Museum of Art, when you're done looking at the Obamas, the traffic is routed into this side exhibit and it's called Black American Portraits. I didn't want to sort of mis-explain this 


    and, 


    go outside of my ability to articulate it too far. So I just went to the LACMA website and I'm just going to read how they describe the exhibit. 


    " Black American portraits chronicles the ways in which black Americans have used portraiture to envision themselves in their own eyes, countering a visual culture that often demonizes blackness and fetishizes, the spectacle of Black pain. These images center on love, abundance, family, community, and exuberance." 


    So there was this one piece in particular. And there were, I mean, the room was massive. It was almost 150 pieces, but there was this one in particular that. I just, it just floored me. Like, it just, it just stopped me and I, it was the first time I've really had an experience of like needing more time and not wanting to move from having the opportunity and the time to just take it in. 


    It's called Behind the Myth of Benevolence, by Titus Kaphar. So, it just, yeah, it just got me. 


    Megan: Well, it's wild. Like why? I mean, why were you like staring at it for four hours? 


    Friend: Yeah, I, and I probably could have, but I had someone else with me at the museum that day and he was like, "You you okay?" I'm like, "No, I'm not okay. I don't think I'm ever going to be the same." Um, so I'm new to this, right? I don't know if this is more common, this was the first time I had ever 


    seen something like this done, but it was this literal physical representation of pulling back the curtain on history with art. 


    Megan: We're going to link to it in the show notes because this piece is breathtaking, even as like a JPEG on the internet. You're just like, 


    Friend: You're like what? I mean, I had to walk, I had to see it from all different angles. it really changed depending on where you were standing. 


    So let me just explain how the artist would explain it. This is Titus Kaphar. He's been quoted as saying that, this piece came out of a conversation. He was having with an art history teacher who in the interview described Thomas Jefferson as a "benevolent slave owner." Air quotes. But then when he followed up that teacher was unable to explain what made Jefferson so benevolent, like was unable to articulate how you would tie benevolence to what he was. 


    And so Kaphar went back to the studio and he paints this portrait of Thomas Jefferson on canvas, and then he pulls it away or layers it, I guess, over top of another canvas with a black woman. And she's peering out, you know, from her own canvas behind him. And it's just, uh... 


    Yeah, It's wild. 


    So Yeah. I know that Kristen is going to assign some homework, but I would also recommend Google, the image, or, the artist has also done a Ted talk on amending art. NPR has done some interviews. There's also.. there was a couple that did fundraising events and so on to make the exhibit happen and then had a walkthrough event of their own house and all of their related art. That's what really got me this week that I wanted to make sure that I had closed the loop on from last week. 


    Megan: I love that. I just thought of a great episode, which is art, that just blows your mind. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: And we'll go through a bunch because this is so noteworthy, not just because of like a moment, but portraiture itself is deep, right? Like, and the fact that this, this painter has taken it back, right? It's like this, there's so many layers to this literally and metaphorically. It's beautiful. 


    Friend: Yep. 


    That'd be cool. 


    Megan: All right. Well, we're going to link to all this in the show notes so everyone can start being huge intellectual art historians like us. 


    Friend: Yes, 


    I have 


    no idea. 


    Megan: Our title. 


    Friend: well, I am certainly not an expert in any way, but we are going to talk to somebody who has spent much of her life in art and design and, is killing it. And we love her. 


    Megan: Yes, we like that in a lady. 


    Friend: Yes. 


    The Main Exhibit. 


    Megan: We are super excited today to be joined by our BFF and super talented creative Kristen Poissant of Kristen Poissant Studio, a full service design studio, which helps creative, small businesses attract their ideal clients through colorful, awesome branding, beautiful web design and cohesive visual strategy. 


    Kristen has been a creative director at her own company for over six years and has worked with some amazing clients. Such as Instagram's hottest Italian home cook, Grossy Pelosi a personal favorite, fashion and DIY blogger, Candice from Smiles and Pearls to name a few. Her work is colorful, fun, and vibrant, just like her. 


    Kristen, thank you so much for taking your time to be with us today. 


    Kristen: Thank you. I'm so excited to chat with you guys. 


    Friend: We've been waiting for this for like since before day one. 


    Kristen: Exactly. 


    Friend: It's not a show without Kristin. 


    Kristen: This is like the perfect cumulation of our friendship. It is all of us together. Like we always like to be, we have the same goals. We're so different. Our careers are so different, but we have common ground that we like to meet on and happy to talk about it today. 


    Friend: Awesome. Thank you for being here. So I'm just gonna brag on you for one second and just tell you that we love you because you inspire us. Yeah. Everything. Why do you love Kristen? Everything. 


    I personally I love women who tell it straight. And just, um, when we were working together, you know, you just gave me the best feedback and in the most direct way and helped me to make decisions. 


    And I think that is so valuable in a service provider. 


    Kristen: Thank you. That's so good to hear. And I mean, I always love working with friends and when it can work as well as it did, even with us, that makes it so much better. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Kristen: So thank you. Thank you. 


    Friend: All right. So we want to make the most of your time. We know you're very busy lady, so we'll just dive right into the questions that we've got for you today. We've divided them by our own curiosities and proclivities. So I'm going to ask some, uh, some awkward financial questions and Megan will ask you some of her awkward Megan questions. 


    Kristen: I am so ready. 


    Friend: Okay. 


    Megan: This is like, basically like we have to put explicit on this. 


    Friend: I mean, she can't not. We went over your bio very quickly there at the beginning. Do you want to give us a little more on your career background? You know, why New York and what were you doing before this? 


    Kristen: Yeah, absolutely. I have been down here in New York. I say down because I grew up in Connecticut. I'm a new England girl at heart. I grew up in Connecticut, went to school in Massachusetts and right after school in 2004, I moved down here to the city, started working for a company that designed licensed accessories. So that included a lot of work with Disney, Nickelodeon, Hasboro designing mass market stationary for retailers like Target, Walmart. A lot of the back-to-school stationary that you were always excited to go get in August as a kid. Get ready for school. That's what I was designing. 


    And it was truly a dream job right after college. So that kind of launched me into product design. I did that for almost 13 years for a number of different brands, number of different licenses, and then came the point in time where I wanted to make a shift, make a change for myself. Based on the work that I was getting kind of freelance jobs. 


    Enjoying so much more working outside of the corporate setting with small businesses that I decided to make the pivot and really do that. Full-time just over six years ago. So here I am working with small creative businesses, helping them brand themselves, enhance their visual presence, online, focus on brand strategy and help them grow their business, which has always been important to me and where I've thrived in my career is helping out other people and seeing them thrive as well. Fills my cup and what I do every day. 


    Friend: That's so good. Can you tell us how long did it take you to make that decision to leave corporate? 


    Kristen: A few years. And it's nothing I ever set out and said, oh, this is what I want to do. But there came a point in time where I was like, oh wow. I could potentially do this on my own. And what does that look like? And I will be honest, what I thought it looked like is not anything, what it looks like today. But making that decision really came over time and I get that question a lot and I tell people, you will find this peace about you when you know that the decision is right. No amount of money planning, no amount of contacts, no amount of jobs lined up will make you ever feel comfortable, but there is a peace that kind of comes over you. 


    That's like, okay, now I can do this. I didn't do it -I didn't make that choice until that feeling came over me where I'm like, yes, this is a confident decision. I'm going to go forward and do it. I did enter it cautiously, but I tried to be smart about it. 


    Friend: That's such a good indicator on the emotional dashboard: peace. 


    Kristen: Yeah. 


    Megan: It's also, I mean, it's nice to de glamorize it a bit. Right. I mean, I think there's this like stigma where it's like, oh, follow your dream. It's like, well, you do also have to be a real human. 


    Kristen: Absolutely. A hundred percent. I knew that. You know, it was me, it was me taking care of myself, my space living on my own. I was in charge of everything that I was doing. And it was a lot of pressure to put on myself. And it still is, as we've talked about, personally in our friendship, but, yeah, making that decision is, is not an easy one and it really is not too glamorous whatsoever. There's a lot of backend work to the hustle and making things actually happen that are, that are tricky sometimes. And not so pretty, not so fun. 


    Megan: It's not cute. It's not cute. 


    Kristen: Not cute. 


    Megan: But you make it look real good. If you want to know the truth. And that's why we love you. 


    Kristen: But I, I do, I do it to say it may look good, but I also show the hard parts as well. And I feel like that's very important. 


    Megan: it is so important. 


    Kristen: Not always, pretty, but you have to show both sides of it. 


    Not the highlight reel. 


    Megan: Yeah, because why bother showing only the good parts when you're like working your little tushy off? I mean, that's why I show behind the scenes too. It's like, people need to understand that, like the moment in front of the painting hanging on the white wall for me is really lovely, but there's been like a lot of ugly stuff behind the scenes. 


    When I say ugly, I mean it, you know, okay. So we're going to ask the question that our friend here loves the most, which is me just blurting out during dinner. You were there. 


    Friend: You were there. You, remember. It's your turn. 


    Megan: What do you do all day? But I mean, it, like, I really mean it. I love people's schedules and I love knowing how do you run a business alone? 


    Kristen: Yeah, based on working in corporate, I thrive off of a schedule. So I will say that I'm not somebody who. Kind of is like, oh, I'll wake up at noon and start working at two to two in the morning. Now it's not really me. I try to keep as normal of a schedule as possible. With that being said in my day to days are very different. 


    For example, today I'm talking to you guys, I'm starting with a new client. I have another call with another client and one of their brands that they're working with later this afternoon, I'm sending out a marketing email for that client later today, I'm working on a mood board and a color palette for another client who I started with last week. 


    So within that I'm juggling, you know, five to seven people at any given month. I feel like. Yeah, about five to seven. And within that, there is structure though. I do have to say, I have regimented myself in taking on a certain number of clients a month. We start at the beginning of the month and we wrap up at the end. 


    So there is that structure that allows me to project financially. That's allows me to understand kind of what's on my workload, what I can take on what I might not be able to take on and also plan as well. 


    Megan: Can I ask you a funny question? Do you bite off less or more than you can chew? Like what's your mode? 


    Friend: Like on purpose? 


    Megan: Yeah, just like I personally always take on too much. It's just like my fatal flaw, because I think I can handle it. And then I like cry while painting a mural. This is a true story. 


    Kristen: No, that's very, I think that's a very common thing. For sure. I would say I'm a big boundary setter. I have no problem saying no. I also will not take on a client if I don't feel it's a good fit. I won't take on a client just because financially it's what I need. I've learned that the hard way. 


    And I think that comes with time. That comes with being confident in what you do and confident in yourself. But, yeah, it's, it's really tricky, but boundaries are very important. I know better now than to take on more than I can chew. But with that being said, they're like business, a busy week for me. 


    I'm out of town next week. I'm trying to push a lot into this week. 


    Friend: It sounds like your days are so colorful. I feel like, you know, when I hear you talk about working with so many different people in all these different brands, it's just very, colorful in my imagination of what your days look like. I don't know if that's true or not, but 


    Kristen: Yeah. And I think that's on purpose too. I, I tried to plan it that way. 


    Friend: And so today's color is green. Can we talk about the money side? 


    Megan: Oh, I love that transition. 


    Friend: Right? Like how, how am I going to get these girls to talk about the money come on. I know that finances are sensitive and we're so grateful that you're willing to come and talk to us a little bit about it. 


    Can I just dive right in first money questions? When you think of finance, what happens in your brain? 


    What do you think? 


    Kristen: A little bit of red flags and panic set in. It's so funny being in a creative field and living in New York City. When I think of finance, I think of men in their twenties with colored shirts and fleece vests at lunch. 


    Friend: With the bank logo embroidered on the 


    Kristen: Exactly. All of the finance boys going to the food trucks on park avenue to get their lunch. 


    That's exactly what I think of. 


    Megan: They're like little school boys, but grown up. 


    Friend: probably on my team. Those are probably my little school boys. 


    Kristen: True. Anyways, but yeah, no, I think Finance and finances are two different things. Finance and the financial world, and those gentlemen who work in that world. And I am so proud to know a woman who works in that world, and who is at a high level and you know who I'm talking about? 


    Friend: What's her name? 


    Megan: She's a friend. 


    Kristen: I'm trying really hard not to say. 


    Megan: Friend of the podcast. 


    Kristen: Anyways, I think finance and finances mean different things to me. The finances is mainly what I think about in my field of financial and finance is something that's different. 


    Friend: Yeah, I appreciate that. I'm glad you have explained that to our listeners because I think sometimes I forget and just wrap them all up in one. And It's like a contraction when we talk about finance and it's not quite, as articulate as we should be. 


    Kristen: It's very broad. Especially even in banking. When you first told me I work in banking, I'm like, 


    okay, very broad. 


    Friend: Yeah. exactly. 


    Kristen: Yeah. Just like being a creative though, being a creative and especially being a graphic designer, everything in our lives, everything that we touch is designed. 


    I'm holding up a gift card. I'm holding up my air pods, my phone. I mean, even this tape measure right here that I keep at my desk, all of it is designed specifically. 


    Friend: This pink tape measure. Bright, hot pink. 


    Kristen: Of course. 


    Friend: On brand. 


    Kristen: Everything just like in banking, creative is broad too. So it could be, you know, working on a creative side in house somewhere. It could be creative doing what Megan does and painting. We have a ground to cover there. 


    Friend: Good answer. There was no wrong answer there. Thank you. Just trying to get a sense for what happens in, you know, people's brains. When we start going toward this topic. Did you have a chance to look at the comfort scale and the grid? happy to talk about? Either of them, but where did you place yourself on the scale or the grid? 


    Kristen: I would say I'm pretty much in the middle. I'm about a five. It doesn't scare me because I know I do have to make it a priority. And I know that there's responsibility and I'm, don't shy away from it. But taking a deep dive into it gives me anxiety, as I'm sure it does most people and especially being your own business. It's important to know where money is going and money is moving. 


    Friend: Yeah. So scale of one to 10, you're a solid five, tolerate. 


    Kristen: I would say so I'll tolerate it. Yes, I tolerate it. I get it done when I need to, but do I like to talk about it? Really? Probably not. 


    Megan: I think, I think there's something to that though, because if you had asked yourself this question 10 years ago, you would have been an avoider probably. Right? So we are getting wiser with age and I do think there's, we need to pat ourselves on the back a little bit, especially with a different, you know, everyone comes from their own personal background on comfort with money and talking about it. And so if you weren't raised in a household where money was a topic that was allowed to be spoken of for whatever reason, and now you're a confident woman who owns a business, that is something to mention, that's a huge accomplishment. And I forget often to tell myself that. 


    So it's like, we need to pat ourselves on the back more, generally speaking. 


    Kristen: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you guys can probably atest to this too we're encroaching on the middle part of our careers 20 in 20 out. So we're almost, I know, I hate to say it too, but 


    Friend: I don't want to keep doing this for 20 more years. 


    Megan: retiring actually. 


    Kristen: Okay. Yeah, exactly. So we're at that point now where it's really like taking a lot of this seriously and thinking about, okay, what is that end goal? If you don't want to do it for 20 more years, what does that look like? For me, Megan, it is a little bit different. 10 years ago I probably would have been more confident talking about it because I was in a corporate setting. 


    Megan: Oh, interesting. 


    Kristen: I was on salary. I did have health benefits. I did have a 401k set up that somebody was contributing to through my own job. And now, you know, it shifts when you own your own personal business. 


    So I would say. I was more confident talking about it back then, because I had those things in place. And obviously when you do this on your own, it brings in a different level of planning. 


    Friend: I think that's important for us to remember Megan. Kristen, thank you for raising that. I would put myself at the top end of the scale, but I have those safety nets that you've just described. 


    Yeah. So there's less anxiety there. The anxiety is more macro it's like, do I keep a job or not? 


    It's not each line item. Is it at risk? 


    Megan: I mean, I'll be the first to admit I love receiving. Every two weeks from an external source. 


    That's I miss it so much. I consider going back to teaching five times a year because of that 


    fact alone. 


    Kristen: I will be honest. Same, same here. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's not moments of doubt. 


    Megan: No, It's just stability 


    Kristen: Stability would be nice. 


    Friend: Awesome. Thank you for that. How about the, the grid? Did that resonate at all the sort of X and Y axis with the quadrants? 


    Kristen: Yeah, I'm a middle of the ground type of girl. I feel like I would be middle of the ground there, but, after I looked at it, I've definitely thought about it over the past few weeks and I think my definition of splurge is different from. I think even you two. All of our definitions of splurging would be different. 


    Friend: But this is why this is so good to talk about because the goal is to not find the right answer it's to start developing the ability to think about where you are and whether that works for you or not. 


    Kristen: Yeah. Splurges are different in that sense that I feel like I do splurge on some things. And sometimes you have to splurge on something in order to get business, keep on moving. For example, my laptop died unexpectedly and it wouldn't even charge, wouldn't turned on. So that alone it's like, okay. I do have to go and see if I can fix it. Ended up at the Apple store in Grand Central and buying a new laptop that day. Cause I had to get it done. I had to do it. So that's like a splurge where I was like, I gotta do this. 


    But then, you know, I was thinking about it specifically last night, as I'm planning to go to Palm Springs for a friend's wedding in May. And I'm like, okay, what, what do I want to splurge on? Do I upgrade my seat on a six hour flight? Or do I stay at a nicer hotel? Do I get a cheaper hotel so I can in travel afterwards, like I'm all about the balance of it and feeling like what's worth it, what's not. 


    Friend: I actually feel like on this grid, middle of the road is, is maybe a good place to be like, I think that it's not that saving is all good and splurging is all bad. You can be far on the side of saving and have no fun and not contribute to your community and the economy and, you know, be stuck just sort of holding tightly. I think the middle keeps you away from the edges. I know that's the obvious, but you know... 


    Kristen: Completely, completely. And I would say that's definitely where I don't live life on the edge too much. I feel safe there. I think it's interesting to see about mindset too. If you have an abundance or a scarcity mindset, when approaching a lot of this, I would say I steer very far away from a scarcity mindset. I try to keep an abundance. I feel like abundance attracts abundance. So there's that to be said too, about having that mentality about how you approach it. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: I love that. 


    Friend: Yeah, thank you. All right. Next question. Do you manage the finances for your business yourself or do you outsource that? 


    Kristen: I definitely do a little bit of both. I can very easily keep track of what's coming in. When it comes to taxes, that is something that as a business and a business owner, I'm an S-Corp. I do have somebody that helps me with that. Who is wonderful. I am all for paying somebody who is an expert in their field. So I have a wonderful tax woman, Irene, who I know some of us in here, use as well. And I recommended all my friends too. She is fabulous. She keeps me on track. With that being said, we don't talk weekly or even monthly. But she is there whenever I have a question, when it comes to the end of the year, she knows everything that's going on. 


    I think we're going on year four or five of working together. And she has been a godsend and I am happy to invest in her, invest in her as a female run business. I am happy to give her name out to anybody because she makes my life easier. At the end of the day, she's in charge of my payroll. She's in charge of my end of year taxes. And she reminds me and kind of keeps me on track as far as paying out quarterly as well, which I do, but everything else I can keep track on my own. 


    Friend: Yeah. So a hybrid. You use the expertise when you need it. 


    Kristen: Right. Right. And I don't have any employees. I contract out work if I need to. I've done less of that this year and last year, but if I need to, I will contract out work. But that's not anybody I have on payroll. So it's manageable in that sense. And I like that. I like to keep it. I don't ever want to grow too big where it gets very complicated, I'm responsible for other people's salaries as well. I enjoy helping people and letting them thrive in their business. 


    Friend: That's good. Okay. Interesting. One or two more questions here. This one is about costs, a little more towards the cost side of things, you know, running a business and living in one of the most expensive cities in certainly the U S but even in the world, it's probably top five. I'll have to fact check myself on that. It's very impressive from this angle. Does it feel impressive or does it feel otherwise? 


    Kristen: I don't know any different. So I moved down here in 2004, three to four months after graduating college, I had lived in Connecticut over the summer. I moved back home. I had a job that I probably could have stayed in, I was very happy because it was a creative type of job. 


    I loved it. It was in the theater. I worked in musical theater. I loved the position I was in, but it came to a point with, okay, do I want to focus on the career that I went to school for? And I was able to find a job here in. Manhattan. And I moved down here in August of 2004. So I've lived here for in New York standards a very long time, and I don't know any different. My career has kept me here. I've had no reason to leave. My family is still close, so I can see them. But it's interesting as far as living in one of the most expensive cities, it's all I know. 


    So to me, living a New York lifestyle is no rmal. Which is wild, which is wild when you kind of say that out loud, because at one point in my career, when I was working for Vera Bradley, who is based out of Fort Wayne, Indiana, my coworker and I would look at real estate out there because everything in Fort Wayne, Indiana was so cheap. 


    And we would have coworkers that were buying houses that were paying three to $400. A month just for their mortgage. And that was even on the high-end. 


    Megan: Oh, my God. Can you imagine. 


    Kristen: It was, wild and we were like, what are we doing with ourselves? 


    Friend: You pay more than that for parking per month in NYC. 


    Kristen: Yeah. Completely. So, that really put it into perspective at that point in time, but it's what I know. And it's where I want to be. I've thought about, you know,, moving out at certain points, but you make it work for you. I don't live in the most expensive part of town. I live in a part of the city that culturally is a good fit for me. 


    That is, close to the things I want to be at. It's close to beautiful parks, but it's not living in Midtown Manhattan. But still I'm a five minute walk to the subway and five stops into Manhattan. So you kind of choose to make it work for you while you're here. And I definitely feel like I've found what works for me. 


    Megan: I still think it's amazing. 


    Friend: Yeah, it's still amazing. 


    Megan: Like you should be bragging more, 


    Friend: Like, if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere. 


    Megan: Yeah. There's a song I've heard. 


    Kristen: Yeah, says the two women who have lived here and lived outside of here. I don't know that world. It's funny, like, you know, living in the suburbs like you do, and you know, living in London and, overseas like you did and it's yeah. 


    Friend: I mean, Hong Kong is probably the worst that I've seen in terms of the ability to afford life. Like you can't buy anything more than a shoe box there. 


    Kristen: I have a girlfriend who moved from here to there as well, and yeah. I've seen the same. 


    Friend: In Hong Kong, didn't see the independent side of things. It was all corporate. So I don't know how creative entrepreneurs and independent creative women were making it work there. 


    Megan: Maybe they're not. It would be cool to find out. 


    Kristen: Yeah. If you would like a contact to bring on this podcast, I can give you one. One of my girlfriends works in fashion and she moved over there to work for a fashion brand. And it's been year over 10 years now. So yeah, the iteration of seeing how her career has evolved to living as an ex-pat in a place like Hong Kong has been very interesting. 


    Friend: Yeah, I think that would be good. Cause the only people I know in Hong Kong are bankers and they're getting like bank housing provided. That's a different ball game. Right? 


    Kristen: Completely. Yeah. She's in a completely different field, but seeing how she has been able to make it work and you know, how other colleagues of her from around the world have been able to, you know, make it as an ex-pat. And that type of space has been really, really interesting to watch. 


    Megan: That's so cool. 


    Friend: Oh yeah. Last question for me, and then I'll hand over to Megan. What is your measure of success when it comes to your business and your finances? 


    Kristen: I think feeling comfortable and not always feeling the hustle is my measure of success. When you feel comfortable and you can be able to afford the things that you want to afford, you can live the way you want to live and not always worrying about. Hustling to get another client hustling, to get another job, knowing that your workload is set in advance. I think is success. 


    Megan: I love that answer so much. Your success, wavelength is just a beautiful, the way you explained it was beautiful. I love that. 


    Kristen: Good. 


    Megan: All right. Are you ready to be bamboozled by my question? 


    Kristen: Go for it. 


    Megan: All right. So let's give some encouragement to people. Shall we? Someone is wanting to leave their day job to start their own creative business. What do you, Kristen say to them? 


    Kristen: I would definitely say the most important part is having that level of peace and comfort, knowing that you're going to be able to make it work. I think there is no amount of money that's going to be able to make you feel that comfort. But if you have contacts. If you have jobs lined up, that can really set you for the first six months to a year. 


    That to me is really important to be able to be within that space, doing what you want to do and thriving within that. I think knowing who your community will be when you go off on your own is very important as well. It can be very lonely. If you just decide to do it, you don't know where anybody within your space, my business was able to grow and thrive. 


    The way it did in the first few years because I considered all creative entrepreneurs doing not only would I did, but in other fields, but who were in similar situations with me, were there as my colleagues. They were there when I had questions. They were there. I mean, you two are a big part of that. 


    Megan: I think it's huge to have a community, but I also think it's very worth mentioning that you don't need to strike out alone. Like that's nearly impossible and kind of ridiculous, like rely on people that have done it well, or at least have some buddies in the, in the fight. 


    Kristen: And especially people who are in the same type of field that you are there is always enough work to go around, do not approach anybody as competition because they have the same fears and they've the same wins as you do. And you need to celebrate those together. 


    I have a really great group of girls that I got to know early on and starting my business in my business would not be here. The processes that I have in place would not be here if it was not because of them and us having conversations about what is working for some of us, what is not? And then finding the best route. 


    Megan: I love that. It's very important. Okay. Then the other end of that question is when do you discourage someone from taking this leap? Because I personally think it's over glamorized to be like, follow your dreams. It's like, well, yeah. However, also pay rent and contribute to society in a positive way. So like where's the balance there? 


    Friend: And save for the future ,a little bit. 


    Kristen: Yeah. no, absolutely. And I think it's really important for you to remind us of that as well. That I feel like is secondary in a number of people's minds and it really should be more in the forefront, myself, a hundred percent included. But yeah, Megan, it definitely can be over glamorized. 


    The whole 'follow your dream is do what you want,' it really is. And it's not as easy one if you're down here in the nitty-gritty of it, but again, that support system is important. Make sure you have that in place. 


    Megan: Also they're like the voice of reason, you know, like sometimes you need a support system, not just to like cheer you on, but to be like, yo, that's a risky idea. 


    Like it's a balance of it's coworkers, but you have to kind of form your own cohort. 


    Kristen: Yeah, exactly. Have them, know that it's somebody who can also be honest with you, but yeah, if there's any doubt, I would say it's probably not a good time to do it. You have to be a hundred percent ready, a hundred percent in it, and you do have to have some sort of plan in place. 


    You have to, that you can't go into it blindly. And I definitely recommend, you know, doing it parallel with your career for a certain amount of time to making sure like, yes, this will work. Yes. This can happen. 


    Megan: Yes. There's beauty in having a majorly, lovely safety net. And I think that's the thing that women need to say out loud more often, because it's like, you can follow your dream until the cows come home. The pressure and the anxiety of also doing that while being a mom who sends their kids to school and like pays the bills. I can't, I mean, I can't understate that that is very scary. 


    Like that's just, or overstate, like that's just so it's scary. So I think we need to realize that, like me following my dream, doesn't help everyone sleep at night. I have to also pay bills. 


    So there's that reality. 


    Kristen: Yeah, maybe it's a little gradual. When I left my corporate job, they actually asked me to stay on part-time. Which I did not even think was an option. They asked me to stay on part-time for an additional four to five months, and they allowed me to work from home. 


    And this was, you know, obviously pre-pandemic. I was able to work from home, start my own business, but still work with them. Part-time in order to make that transition, even for them easier. 


    Megan: That's amazing. 


    Kristen: it made a big difference. 


    Friend: So, what would you say to the group that would respond and say, you're never going to be fully ready. You're never going to be fully comfortable. It's never enough money, which you've said yourself, and you have to just do it scared. Like when does it become, you're scared and you do it anyway. And you're scared and you have doubts. And so you don't do it like where what's the kind of trigger point for knowing which one is right in your gut? 


    Kristen: I. I have had this thing in my head for a very long time. It's always gonna work out. You're always going to make it work out. 


    Friend: Hmm. 


    Kristen: So there is no doubt in my mind, you're not going to let yourself fail. It's always going to be ok. 


    Megan: What do I love you? 


    Kristen: I can't like, I, I know I booked my clients anywhere from four to eight weeks in advance. I don't, as of right now, I don't have a client set up past April, but I know based on experience that I will. And I've gotten to a point where I know this is how it's going to be, and I'm not gonna let it. 


    If I realize I'm getting too close to my deadline and I don't have anybody lined up, what do you do? You ramp up talking about what you do online. You talk about it more to people and it's, it's always going to work out. 


    Megan: Or you get your friends to like shout from the rooftops, how great you are and say, hire her, you know, like there's people out there that will help you. 


    Kristen: Yeah. 


    Megan: I love that sentiment so much. There's a quote by someone I'm going to attribute it to Picasso, but that's probably wrong. 


    It says like, luck finds you when you're working something along those lines. And so whenever I'm painting and I'm wishing something would sell or a commission would come in, or the email that I sent millions of years ago would come back to me. I just like think of that while I'm painting, because I think. 


    If I sit around and worry about it, it's not going to help. Right. I need to just keep the ball rolling. And then of course, of course the email back, of course, someone buys something. So that's just so interesting. 


    Kristen: And it's somebody that you usually least expect and somebody you actually know. It's so amazing how I can tie back the people that I'm working with now to people that I worked with in the past, that people who I met at a certain event, that everything has come full circle, especially this year. I would say, you know, during COVID, and the more you talk about what you do, the more people are like, oh my gosh, right? She's a brand strategist and she's has a creative background. She can help me with this. And once that, like, light clicks on, 'cause you're talking about what you do and you're talking about it, often, reminding them educating them, it comes to the forefront and they're like, oh right. Yes, Kristin, is there. 


    Friend: This is a perspective we would not have had for anything. I think in life, in our twenties, because you don't know that it's all going to work out. You don't know that. And even things like, am I going to get the next corporate job? Am I going to be able to sell this apartment? Am I going to ever get married? 


    Like you don't know when you're that young, you don't have the experience to know that yes, life is long and it is going to work out. But at this point we're all approaching 40, then we have enough of that experience. The next job always comes, things sell, you know, it might take a little bit, but the house will sell or, you know, someone will come along that you're interested in. It's that seasoning that gives you that confidence. I would say, like, you've done it enough times to know you will have clients in April and May. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Kristen: Absolutely. Yeah. Business will go on. 


    Friend: Yeah, I like that. 


    Megan: All right. I'm now going to fire away with some rapid fire questions for you because. To be quite honest, I need some rapid-fire because I was like sweating about just all that stuff. Okay. 


    Friend: Maybe it's the coat your wearing. 


    Megan: No, I'm wearing a Sherpa because I'm trying to pad the podcast microphone room, but that's neither here nor there. 


    Friend: I think that's a great outfit choice for padding the room. I mean, 


    Megan: This, this jacket is a legend. Can I go back real quick to your abundance mindset? How did you get that? Because I have a scarcity mindset and I don't know how to get rid of it still. 


    Kristen: I think being around people with a scarcity mindset and it driving me crazy. 


    Megan: Oh yeah. That's that's one thing. 


    Kristen: I don't know. I like the idea of manifestation and I feel like scarcity doesn't manifest anything good. 


    Megan: No, oh, that's so true. 


    Friend: I'm a recovering scarcity mindset person. And I come in and out of it sometimes, but I wouldn't call it a trick. I would say that I have made a practice of gratitude journaling. And I think there's something that happens in your brain where it can get rewired if you encourage it to articulate what is going well and what is good. And so if you give yourself, maybe it's three things a day, maybe it's five or 10. I am now at the point where I could do 10 easily, you just asked me 10 things. I'm grateful for. I give the, rattle them off. And I think that that rewiring to identify the positive helps you to focus on the positive. 


    And then when you're looking at it that way you don't see as much of the lack. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: I don't know if you tried that, but, 


    Kristen: Yeah, definitely. 


    Megan: All right. There's a whole episode for me here. 


    Friend: If I leave it for like a week or two, then I hear myself and I'm like, ooh, sounded a little, 


    yeah, it does it unwinds itself. 


    Megan: Well, it's like recovering perfectionism, you know, like I'm still under there. And I act like, I'm like, Hey, I don't care. But it's like on, on your dark days, it's still lingering. 


    Kristen: Oh, for sure. Yeah. It just, how much you decide to dwell on it or talk about it if you're like. No, no, like everybody has it. I, I mean, I obviously have it, but it's like, Push that to the side. Keep on going, keep the train moving. 


    Megan: All right. So on that note, let's do some rapid fire. The tinier, the answer, the better. Ready? 


    Kristen: Yeah. 


    Megan: Dogs or cats? 


    Kristen: Duh, dogs. 


    Megan: What's your dog's name? 


    I know I just love her. Okay. Tik TOK or Instagram? 


    Kristen: Um, Instagram. But do you hear that hesitation? 


    Friend: Wow, what happened? 


    Megan: The universe just shifted. 


    Kristen: Um, maybe 


    Megan: Are you converting over girl? 


    Kristen: Never a full, conversion, but thinking and planning. 


    Megan: Oh, God, help us. 


    Friend: Watch this space. 


    Kristen: You may see a different side of Kristin over on Tik TOK. 


    Friend: Please tell me you start doing dance videos. 


    Kristen: Oh, hell no. That will never happen. No. Thank you. No. 


    Megan: We need to sidebar this. 


    Kristen: Let me tell you, I will not be pointing at words either. 


    Megan: Oh, I hate that. 


    Kristen: No. 


    Megan: Tea or coffee? 


    Kristen: Iced coffee. 


    Megan: Fine. in the winter? 


    Kristen: When it's cold out. Yeah. 


    Megan: Such a new Englander. Miami or New York? 


    Kristen: That's a tough one for me, but I will say New York with a weekend trip to Miami. 


    Megan: But like literally let's go to Miami in two weeks. I'll email you guys. 


    Kristen: I leave on the 15th. 


    Megan: Hot pink or lime green? 


    Kristen: Hot pink all day. 


    Megan: Love it. What was your worst subject in school? 


    Kristen: Oh, I'm going to go to the time in college when I had to, because it got put into my freshmen schedule, to take an economics class. I didn't get it. I just was like, at that point in time, I was a fine arts major.. 


    Megan: Another language you're like, I don't read this. 


    Kristen: I got by, I don't know how. 


    Friend: It's funny. I was thinking earlier, when you were talking about how your work applies to what you see in life. You know, like design is everywhere. Design is all around us. And I was thinking, Yeah, everything that you see was funded by a bank. 


    Kristen: Oh, how funny. 


    Friend: Yeah. I was talking to my friend this weekend, who is an economics professor. She sent me some video of her lecturing. And in one of these lectures, she's talking about how economics is everything. So I think that that's a little bit, our nature, like the lens we bring to it. Some of us would look at economics and be like, how is this relevant at all? And then someone who spent their life in it is like, this is the whole story. 


    Megan: Oh, my gosh. That's so interesting. 


    Friend: It's interesting. I'm hoping we're going to talk to her. I think she'll join us in a few. 


    Megan: But you love, what you love? Right. Like it's like as a little kid, even my daughter is an architect or something in engineering, I can tell because she puts it together and then she worries about how things are built. I don't, you know what I mean? Like, I don't think like that she tells me to like put an anchor in the wall before I hang a painting. 


    I'm like, what, how do you even know what that is? You know? And then my son is perhaps an artist because we have a lot in common as far as how we approach the world. He's also a toddler. So maybe I'm just a toddler, but I, I feel like it's so interesting because maybe it's all pre destined, you know, it's wild. 


    Next question. What was your favorite book is a little kid? 


    Kristen: It was a book that was actually a poem, called Wynken Blynken and Nod. 


    And I mean, and this is going back to like when I was little, little, but I really it's still resonates with me and I still love it. 


    And I give it to all of my when they have a child. 


    Megan: I'm linking to it in the show notes, because the precious movie, Dennis, the menace from the nineties, 


    Kristen: Yeah. 


    Megan: Wilson reads it to Dennis before bed, have you seen this? 


    Kristen: Don't think I don't remember that. I know. I'm glad you know what it is. 


    Megan: Oh, it's beautiful. 


    Kristen: It's a beautiful poem. 


    Megan: It's precious. 


    Favorite artist? 


    Me? Okay. Next 


    Kristen: Yeah. 


    Megan: Best restaurant in Queens. 


    Friend: I want to go back to a Favorite artist. 


    Kristen: Favorite skip over that. I mean, it definitely is you. 


    Friend: Don't listen to Megan. 


    Megan: I'm kidding. I'm not bullying anyone on the podcast. All right, fine. Go. 


    Kristen: Megan's painting right there behind me to that little little one. I'm a big Frida Kahlo fan. I know that it's very like typical. I know that it's very. I would say common, but from an early point in time, obviously color resonated with me. Obviously her feminism resonated with me. There is a lot to unwrap there with her life. That really is exciting. Fascinating. And go to Mexico. 


    Megan: I mean for real Mexico city. Boom 


    Friend: I have a rapid fire question: for Halloween, would you rather dress as your favorite artist? Elizabeth, or Frida Kahlo? 


    Kristen: I've already dressed at Frida. 


    Oh yeah. 


    Megan: Sounds to me like you're wearing this jacket in October. 


    Friend: Because I have a friend who does a mean Frida Kahlo Halloween costume. And I 


    was thinking that would be awesome. 


    Kristen: I'll have to send you pictures of it. 


    Megan: All right. This next question is nearly impossible, but whatever. The best restaurant in Queens or 


    Brooklyn? 


    Kristen: Ooh, no, Brooklyn, a Queens girl. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Kristen: I'm a Queens girl. You're talking to two Queens girls. 


    Megan: For those of you who aren't new Yorkers. It's very fractured. There's like major allegiances here. 


    Friend: We do not cross the Pulaski. 


    Megan: No. 


    Kristen: I enjoy Brooklyn, but I have never lived there. And when I was moving out of Manhattan, I came here and I was like, okay, Astoria is where my people are. And I would say that's primarily because this part of Queens is so diverse. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Kristen: If you cross over two blocks for me, literally, I can see it from my front door. It's like little Morocco over there. If you go two blocks to the other side of me, it's like all Mediterranean and Greek and it's amazing. So I enjoy this part of town, but I will go for Greek day in, day out, all day long. there Are some of the best Greek restaurants in the U S if not, you know, definitely in New York, if not like the whole US here in like walking distance of my neighborhood. And I don't take that for granted any the day. 


    Friend: That one that we go to the Taverna not sometimes line up for like hours. 


    Kristen: There's always lines. Actually, this weekend, they moved into their new location. So we're going to have to go. Have we ever taken you there? 


    Megan: No, I'm starving. I want to go right now. 


    Kristen: Yeah. it's oh, it's so good. 


    Megan: This is the thing about New York food. You transitioned from a little cafe table and you're like, oh, wait, I'm in Greece now. 


    Kristen: Oh completely. And I do have to say, I don't take the food for granted here. The fact that I can order and have a egg sandwich in the morning delivered to my house if I wanted to from the corner bodega, or I can go and be transformed and taken to Greece for dinner, like I don't take any of this for granted. I grew up in a small town where there wasn't even a delivery. You couldn't anything delivered to your house. 


    Megan: I'm moving back. That's settled. All right. The last question. The former teacher in me wants to know something. Do you have a homework assignment for our listeners? For example, something we can work on ,collectively read or look into, or maybe something we've mentioned on this episode, we can kind of like follow up on. 


    Kristen: Yeah, definitely. I have a artist she is a Toronto based artist named Tiffany Pratt. She was, there was a podcast that she did with creative mornings that in 2014 this podcast was very transformative for me in making the decision to lean into my solo career a little bit, but she does a very good job in this specific creative mornings podcast, talking about how you can live a beautiful life authentically colorfully and what it means to kind of lean into your creativity. And by doing that, people believe in you and will take your creativity into consideration, allowing you to live your authentic life. She tells her story about coming down here and the ups and downs of it and how she pushed through and how, you know, she's a little wild and crazy in the best possible way and how that has become her life, her career and who she is. And what does she, what she's known for. 


    So look into Tiffany Pratt, creative mornings podcast she did in 2014 is a good listen. 


    Megan: Okay. Linked to it in the notes. Okay. Well, thank you so much for being with us today. This was wonderful. We love You 


    Where can people find you on the internet? 


    Kristen: Sure. Primarily on Instagram right now at Kristen dot Poissant. My full name and at Kristin Poissant dot com is where people can learn about the services that I offer. What type of work that I do, and how we can potentially work together. 


    Friend: Kristen. Thank you. so much. That was a lot of fun. Our listeners are going to love following you. 


    Kristen: Thank you. You're so sweet. I'm glad that we could get together to do this. And it feels like full circle moment for us here. 


    Friend: Exactly. We'll definitely have you back as well. Whatever else you want to talk about? Just let us know. welcome anytime. 


    Kristen: Thank you. 


    Friend: Well, that brings us to the end of this episode. 


    Thanks so much to Kristen Poissant for joining us during this lively and colorful discussion of following a creative dream and being financially and creatively independent in New York City. We hope that hearing about Kristen's experiences forging her own path as a woman in design living and working in New York was beneficial to you. 


    And as always, thanks for listening to The Arts. 


    Megan: And be sure to come back next week for a discussion on risk-taking and my recent jaunt to Paris, which you're just going to want to tune in. 


    Friend: Uh. 


    Megan: Until then, this is Megan of Art by Megan. 


    Friend: and her friend, your patron of the arts. 


    Megan: Wishing you more art. 


    Friend: And maybe a better understanding of your money. 


    Megan: This is a good, good blooper reel. When I was a child, I have vivid memories of my parents paying me like in quarters to be quiet. 


    Friend: For how long? Is It like a, a slot, like a.. 


    Megan: We watched the Cosby show in the evenings as a family. Like every good family in the late eighties, early nineties. And it was like, please, Megan, don't talk until the next commercial. 


    Friend: Here's a quarter. 


    Megan: And I was like, okay, um, I'm an entrepreneur would bring it. 


    Friend: And could you do it? 


    Megan: And then I look back I'm like, how did I afford paying myself for like my first exchange program in high school? 


    And I'm like, because I had all those quarters. 


    Friend: Silence? 


    Megan: I just cleaned them out. 


    Friend: That's awesome.

Third and Fourth
Episode 003 - Labels and Language (Part 2)

Megan interviews Friend about financial labels and language and what it’s like to be a woman in banking. Friend shares a simple analogy for finance, and answers the question, if finance was a sport, what sport would it be? We find no resolution to the same question for art.

Listen, follow and review us on your go-to podcast directory: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | Google Podcasts

Show Notes

  • Artist Alma Thomas

    The Phillips Collection - “Everything is Beautiful”

    The Obama Portraits Tour - extended and now runs through October 2022

    LACMA (Los Angeles County Museum of Art)

    Confessions of an Art Addict by Peggy Guggenheim

    “Demystification” - totally a word: to eliminate the mystifying features of.

    The Art$’ Money-Talk Comfort Scale is on our Free Resources page

    Homework: Read profiles about some of the influential women in finance:

    100 Most Influential Women in U.S. Finance

    The Most Powerful Women in Finance

    Or, read about Janet Yellen.

    We would love to hear from you! Email us your questions and ideas at podcast at artbymegan dot com

  • Arts 003 - Labels and Language (Part 2)

    Friend: Episode 3, Labels and Language, Part 2. 


    Megan: Very excited about this. 


    Friend: I'm excited too.. 


    Megan: Hey, Friend. 


    Friend: Hey Megan. 


    Megan: I've been looking forward to this last week. We dove into the topic of labels relevant to the arts and creative people. 


    Friend: Yes we did. And you were good about answering all of our questions. Thank you. I enjoyed that. 


    Megan: I love a long answer. 


    Friend: I love a long question. 


    Megan: Okay. Well, you're in the right place. So two long-winded ladies just chatting away. This week you, my friend are in the hot seat. I'm grilling you about all the things in the financial sector. Every topic, this will be a nine hour episode. 


    Friend: I'm ready. Yeah. I think we should just go for it. We're doing what we're doing. It's working, so let's just keep rolling. 


    Megan: All right. Episode 3. 


    Friend: I think what we should do before we get too much into the finance is look at The Scene. 


    Megan: Yes. 


    Friend: So that's our version of what's nerdy and cool with the artists and the financiers. 


    Megan: And if we have time at the end, we should check in on our homework assignments from last week. Did you do your homework? 


    Friend: Yes. Yes. Ma'am. I mean, I always, no actually I never did homework. No, I didn't. I just couldn't really be bothered. 


    Megan: Wait.. 


    Friend: Even in university. 


    Megan: Oh, so you were like one of those smart kids that just like got away with it? 


    Friend: No, I just chose topics where if you didn't do the homework, you could still pass the exams. 


    Megan: (Shocking!) No, this is really illuminating. I would've never guessed. 


    Friend: Did you do yours? 


    Megan: All of it. And more. Okay. I am the perfect A minus student. 


    Friend: Well, I would expect that you can't really be a teacher and a bad student at the same time. 


    Megan: I love school .Still. I just love it. I like smell school supplies. 


    Okay. Checking back in. 


    Friend: So The Scene, 


    I am interested to know what is happening in your Scene this week. 


    Megan: Okay. I went to an amazing art show in DC. I would like to also brag that I brought not one, but two children with me, my own, my children and they behaved as children do when they've, you know, been in a pandemic and not out of the home much. 


    And the gallery was extra quiet and they were shouting from the rooftops about their love of rainbows and colorful art. It was a full experience for me and the guests. 


    Friend: Yeah. That would have brought some life. 


    Megan: It was really something. We went to the Phillips collection in DC and we saw a show called Everything is Beautiful, which is a collection of the Alma Thomas paintings. 


    Alma Thomas is an artist who was sort of famous during her lifetime in DC, but sort of like micro, famous, but honestly, her work is unbelievable. She's wonderful with color and like, you know, I love color. She also is super famous because Michelle Obama was the first First Lady to select her work. 


    She was the first black woman artist to have her painting hung in the White House. So that's just like mindblowing also. Yes, that was 2008. 


    Friend: Yes. I, my jaw just dropped. I just did a silent gasp. That can be true. 2000 and eight. Not that many years ago. 


    Megan: Right. Like, Ooh. So that's a tough, a tough pill to swallow, but she's amazing. 


    And now famous as a result of that support. So sometimes that's what it takes. 


    Friend: Wow. And you said the Phillips Collection - is that its own standalone.. It is ...place? 


    Megan: You have to pay to enter, which is shocking for DC because we know all the museums are free. 


    Friend: Yeah, they're mostly free. 


    Megan: So people from DC slash where I'm from like on the edge of DC are very hoity-toity about paying for museums. We're very funny. Cause they're were like, you have to pay, it's not normal for us. 


    Friend: Yeah. Oh, that's a whole episode on its own paying for entry to see art. 


    Megan: Yes. 


    Friend: I have lots of questions for you, but that sounds amazing. I will look up Alma Thomas and we'll also share some of her. I'm sure. There's a way we can link to her work or.. 


    Megan: Yeah, the Phillips Collection did a wonderful feature on her with interactive stuff for kids, adults. 


    It's great. So we'll link to it in the show notes. All right. What have you been reading and thinking about or seeing lately? 


    Friend: Yeah. Well, to stay on theme, I recently saw the Obama portraits again. Yes. So fantastic. I had seen them once when they were in DC at the Smithsonian's National Portrait Gallery. But he was in with the other men in the America's Presidents exhibit. And she was off on our own. Side note. Can we talk to your daughter about how I would totally vote for her and we can end this? 


    Megan: No, she can be a guest on the show. Like she would be thrilled. She'd have to like schedule us in. She's working right now. 


    Friend: She can tell us about what is happening in art and finance at school. 


    Megan: I'm not kidding you like this child is an adult. I don't understand. 


    Friend: Yeah. So I would like to see her portrait. There you go into the America's Presidents exhibit and it's all men, obviously. So Michelle's portrait was in another place in the museum, but these ones now they're on tour. So they're on tour together. The portrait of Barack and the portrait of Michelle. And, um, I should probably call him The President, right? Sorry, sorry. 


    Megan: No, it's fine. He probably would like it. He seems chill. 


    Friend: All right. So this traveling exhibit of their portraits, it's called the Obama Portraits Tour. 


    And it features Kehinde Wiley. He did the portrait of Obama and Amy Sherald did the portrait of Michelle. I was in Chicago. They were there this summer. I couldn't get tickets then the tour came to Brooklyn. I totally duffed it and did not get tickets in time. And, and then I was in LA and they were in LA at the LA County Museum of Art, and I could get tickets. So made it to see them there. They're going on to Atlanta and Houston, and they're going to be in Houston until the end of May. So we'll share that information. But I thought it was really awesome. They had them displayed side by side in the LA County Museum of Art, and it was less crowded than it was in the National Portrait Gallery. And then after you had your moment appreciating those two portraits, they funneled you into another exhibit called Black-American Portraits. And yes, I will tell you about that next time. But basically I stood there in front of the Obama portraits long enough until it got awkward, uh, for my husband and the security guards. 


    Megan: I feel like that's just mission accomplished right there. 


    That's perfect. That's the whole point of art though, is that you should be that lost in it and feel a tiny bit embarrassed or not. Like, sorry. I have to stare at this longer. 


    Friend: Yeah, exactly. Like I'm not ready to move on. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: How's it going with your morning pages? 


    Megan: Okay. I'm working my way through it. You're supposed to read this book weekly. I don't know if you remember that it's like segmented by week. I don't have the brain or the willpower for that. So I sort of, I've been skipping ahead only because I know what topics I really need to hit home on. 


    Friend: Impatient overachiever. 


    Megan: But I also know that I don't need to work on inspiration, but I do need to work on like, shame. We'll talk about that later episode, 10 shame. Um, okay. I'm also reading Peggy Guggenheim memoir called confessions of an art addict, which is shocking, fascinating, eccentric, bizarre. I mean, all the things you would expect of this woman, that's also, hashtag goals. 


    Like I just want to be an old woman in Venice, with my 12 dogs, just chilling with my art collection, you know, just what a, what a legend. So. 


    Friend: Okay. Now is the point in the show where I admit, I don't know who you're talking about. I mean, Guggenheim museum, right? Yes. 


    Megan: No, that's good. This is good. 


    This is actually quite on theme for today when we're going to be talking about finance. So Peggy Guggenheim was like the original art collector. She was sort of like, um, socialite in new York's art scene, who very creatively collected art and befriended people like Jackson Pollock, and like the abstract expressionists women. And Max Ernst, another really famous painter who was like rescued from World War Two. She was very revolutionary and progressive and wild. 


    Friend: She was The patron of the arts. 


    Megan: Like patron of the arts in the way where she was like smuggling people across borders. Like her memoir is kind of awesome, but kind of intense if you're not in the mood to read about know, extremely wealthy, entitled white woman. 


    Friend: Is she the one that left all her money to her dogs? 


    Megan: She in fact left a lot of money to dogs. 


    Friend: Maybe not all her money 


    Megan: Lots of dollars was left with the dogs. I don't know if that's where I'd put it, but... 


    Friend: I mean interesting, but hey , if you have so much, you can be generous to all. 


    Megan: Yes. We will link to Peggy and her memoir in the show notes though. So people can dive into her crazy world. 


    Friend: Oh, it sounds interesting. Good. All right. Well I'm hoping that, uh, at some point I'll be able to walk around with you at 80 and have a friend who is so 


    Megan: covered in dog 


    Friend: Eccentric. Yes. 


    Megan: I don't actually want that many dogs. 


    I do want to be like gondolad around, you know. Okay. Also one more thing is that I'm, I'm really leaning into non-fiction this year. Is there something happening in my brain? 


    Friend: Well, I, I, you should talk to your therapist, but that 


    Megan: I am. 


    Friend: I'm not sure, but maybe you need more of a rested brain to read non-fiction and maybe it's that time of the year. I don't know. 


    Megan: Okay. All right. Cool. 


    Friend: All right. 


    Megan: Well, I love your brain. 


    Friend: Well, yours too. 


    Megan: All right, let's do this 


    Friend: The Main Exhibit. 


    All right. Well, for this, uh, for this episode, my brain is your pick because we're about to swap roles from our last episode, right? 


    Megan: Yes, it is my turn to explore your world and my apologies in advance for not sounding confident at all with this terminology, because, I'm going to ask you questions. That don't make sense. That'll be fun for you. 


    Friend: No problem. Do you know, that's not the first time someone said that to me today. Actually this happens. Yeah. It happened at work today earlier. No problem. I'm ready. So we may as well start. What we are going to do as a really. 


    special treat for our listeners at the end of this episode is that we're going to be giving you all a special code, which you can redeem at your nearest college or university for Finance 1 0 1 credit. And those who leave us a review for our podcasts will get an A. 


    Megan: She is tricky. 


    Friend: Okay. Not really. I wish we could maybe someday, but, seriously, I've been looking forward to this. I hope it won't get too boring. I'm going to try to drop the word, " trending" or "sale" or something every once in a while just to keep everyone awake. 


    Megan: That might work. 


    Okay. First step. My first question is very general, but what inspired you to enter the world of Finance? You can get as personal or juicy as you'd like with this answer. 


    Friend: Well, to start, I would take issue slightly kindly with the word inspired. What inspired me to enter finance? I wouldn't say that I was inspired. I would say that I was incentivized or maybe motivated, influenced other things, but it wasn't inspiring. Sorry to disappoint. 


    Megan: That's very interesting. 


    Friend: In one way it was sort of accidental. Like it wasn't really what I thought I wanted to be when I grew up, maybe it was even mercenary, like something I needed to do to get certain outcomes I wanted. 


    But isn't that interesting, right off the bat, we're defaulting to different verbs. Like we have different starting position. I don't even like inspired. I don't know. 


    Megan: I respect that. I don't think you have to justify why you choose to do it for a living. 


    Friend: Okay, good. 


    Megan: I think that's the whole point is that we have choice. So as women, we should just be like, I can do what I would like to try and do. 


    Friend: Yeah, I think I really was like, I can, and it will be nice. So why don't I try it? You can always leave, right? Like you can always try something and leave. I just didn't happen to leave. I just stuck around. 


    Megan: It's very interesting. 


    Friend: I liked it, yeah. 


    Megan: That's cool. 


    Friend: Yeah. I thought we could maybe, just pause there. We've already dropped the first word, this word finance. 


    Exactly. That can mean different things to different people. And, uh, actually I think it's a contraction of something else that we use to mean something else. 


    Is that fine if we just do like a quick, like one-on-one and what do we mean when we say, okay, so the first thing to remember is that finance is a subset of business. So like the other day you were talking about how sewing is in with craft craft is a subset of the arts, right? So it's the same: finance is a subset of business. 


    And so it fits into the business world and it fits in alongside a lot of other things that we're very comfortable with and that we talk about and have interactions with a little more easily. it's just an area of specialty within business. So when someone says I'm in finance, it's like, I, I work in the business world. 


    Megan: I don't know why I never thought of that before, but continue. 


    Friend: I had never articulated before until we were planning for this episode. So hopefully that will help a few people right off the bat, easy wins. And then if you think about, okay, so what else, like, what are the other pieces of business, or if you think about running a business, the other things that we would probably all more easily identify with are the siblings or the peers of finance are things like sales, marketing strategy, right? 


    Technology, human resources, and then, you know, finance, it fits right in there. It's just one piece of managing or running a bit. 


    Megan: Oh, my gosh, mind blown. 


    Friend: So hopefully so far, that's not so scary because it's just like one, one thing that we all have to do to keep the business going. We have to have sales. We have to have people who manage our people. That's human resources. We need to manage the technology. Well, we also need to manage the money. Right? 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: So I have an analogy for you. And some of our, maybe finance, tepid friends. So bear with me, let me know if this, if this is good, if not, I won't repeat it. 


    Megan: It will never be spoken of, again. 


    Friend: Here's what I was thinking when I was thinking, okay, well, how do we make an analogy for this? So finance is basically like the motherhood role of business. So if businesses, the family or the family unit and money is the children, right? Our precious assets, those are the children, the money, then to grossly generalize on the family unit roles, the dads are sales and marketing and they're having the fun. Right. And the moms are finance. 


    Megan: Oh my God. 


    Friend: Like the moms, the moms .. 


    Megan: I'm drawing this for you, but this is beautiful. 


    Friend: Please draw it! I have words, but you know, no visual representation. 


    So finance, like motherhood is just the work of managing those assets. You know, those most precious assets, right? So you're solving for. Procuring the asset. Right, because let's face it, women do the journey of infertility, you know? So finances, like, okay, let's, let's gather the money. Saving it, spending it, investing it, growing it, all of that is finance. It's financial management. It's managing the money for the business. 


    Megan: Awesome. 


    Friend: So then what follows from that is personal finance is the way you manage your personal money, your personal assets and corporate finance is the way corporations manage their money. 


    So if someone is working in finance for their day job, like me, they're working in a role that is helping a company manage the assets. 


    Megan: Oh! 


    Friend: And then just to go one more level down, hopefully this is not too painful so far. So far so good, I'll just check in, check in with the audience, right? So then within finance, that management of the money, you have this, group of service providers that come alongside the corporates to help them manage their assets. 


    And so because it's a service for people in finance, right. People managing the money, it's often referred to as financial services. And so it's a little confusing, but that's what I mean by contraction is that we often just say finance, really what we're talking about is financial services. 


    And to really double down on the family unit analogy, financial services is the nanny. 


    Megan: I wish I was like a YouTube video. 


    Friend: I mean, I could see it. I saw your jaw drop. 


    Megan: I was like mouth, a jar: nanny!? But that's so true because you think of it as like your raising the money for the people while the, primary investor cannot. 


    Friend: Right. Exactly. So financial service providers are companies like banks, fund managers, mortgage brokers, right? We all know mortgage brokers, insurance agents, accountants, financial planners, right? Those are all accessible terms that we know. Those are all financial service providers. Those are the nannies like there there's subspecialties of the financial services industry of finance, of business. 


    That's all, all in your stack there. 


    Megan: So cool. So far. So do the best drawing. I just can't wait to put this into my little.. 


    Friend: Can you place me then in this subspecialty of banking? 


    Megan: Yes. 


    Friend: Okay. That's the type of nanny that helps you drive your kids around to all their activities, tutors them on their homework and makes sure that they can be well-rounded and get into the best colleges. Like a governess. That's what a bank does. They're shepherding the funds, helping you invest and grow. 


    Megan: I don't want like this $20. Child to stay at the same value. I want to increase value over time. 


    Friend: Exactly. Right. They've got to mature. Yeah, exactly. 


    Megan: Love, love it. 


    Friend: For the purposes of this podcast, much of that experience in the management of risk and money and making decisions, and dealing with the people that I deal with at the bank can be translated back into managing an arts or a more creative based business. So what we're hoping is that that type of management skill will be helpful to the listeners to have that insight of like how it works in corporate, but why I need you is that that experience doesn't necessarily translate into finding my own inner artist. 


    Megan: There is probably something to say about this, right? The whole left brain, right. Brain conversation, and to help people. This is again another episode, but like how people are labeled as being gifted or adept in one, right. It's like, you're almost at birth assigned this, like you're good at X. So you are like this, but I don't know. 


    I see creativity in some of the things you're mentioning. It's just interesting. Not traditional quote unquote traditional. 


    Friend: Yeah. Well, and in the end, you know, finance is a science it's mathematical, but it's also an art there's also judgment involved and you can come up with creative ways of doing things. 


    So anyways, before we digress, I just want to check and say, does that make sense? That analogy - does that hang together okay. 


    Megan: The analogy is perfect, honestly, because. I love any analogy. You've seen the movie My Big Fat greek wedding, right? 


    Yes. 


    Oh my gosh. You know, in that scene where the mom is telling Tula, like go to college or whatever, and she's like, you must understand the mother is the neck. 


    The father may be the head of the family. The mother is the neck and she turns the head every way, whatever. But like, it's such a good analogy because women for ever have been told that they're not good with money or women are not good with math or women are not smart or whatever. We've been told all this garbage when in fact we've been running it forever and by it, I mean the show. 


    So it's just such a strange double messaging where you're like actually in charge of every decision in your family and business, but sometimes you've been put into this category of maybe not knowing what you're talking about. Not you personally, but women. Very interesting. Okay. So tell me more things about why finance? 


    Friend: I guess it's unlike in one way, many other professions where you need to certify. 


    So if you think about law or medicine, accounting, you have to recertify or go back to school. If you want to work in a new country or new jurisdiction, and for many of the roles in finance, you don't have to do that and you just show up and you bring your suit and your spreadsheets and you get to work. 


    And why that's relevant is that. I love to be on the move and see the world. And numbers are country agnostic. You can work with numbers anywhere. I just wanted to be able to do something that would allow me to be on the move with my career and be flexible. 


    Megan: It's universal. 


    Friend: It's universal. Exactly. 


    Megan: Very shocking. Again, I did not think of it that way. 


    Friend: Yeah. It was basically a lifestyle choice. It was something that, I don't know if we learn this when we're looking at options for our career, no one said to me , "well, how do you want to live ?" What kind of life do you want to have? Right. So then that career might not be great for you. If you want to have this lifestyle. Well the lifestyle I basically wanted was, I want to see the world and have work that challenges my brain. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: And so it was like, that's what I, when I mean lifestyle choice, I don't mean like, you know, show me all the money and buy me all the nice clothes. I mean, like challenge me and keep me on the move. 


    Megan: I love that. That's why we're friends, emotional moments, but really that's interesting. 


    Friend: We have that in common those two things, right. You've just found a way to get that outcome differently. It's the same outcome. Like you can, I mean, you're going to Paris, right? You were in Spain. You can paint anywhere. 


    Megan: Yeah. And the universality of it is very, very interesting because I think that's so such a power move, right. To be like, I'm going to pick something actually that translates literally anywhere. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: So wild. 


    Friend: Yeah. At the beginning, I wasn't sure I would be able to stick with it because the hours are long and it is hard work and you're working with some very sharp people and personalities, but I found my way to survive and then to thrive. 


    And then, you know, you get to have all the benefits that come with it. 


    Megan: One thing just, we need to remember for future episodes is to interview someone who's very young not to give them advice. Maybe not like a child, but like a person on the, on the edge of college or at the edge of like that decision where you're like really about what am I going to do with my life? 


    Because a it's just so funny to think back, like from the get go, what did you decide? And then what are you now? You know, there's just like such a. Nonlinear path, even if you tried to be the most linear. So it's just, it's just such an interesting perspective because we are much older and wiser. 


    Friend: Yeah. And I didn't go immediately into it. I thought I wanted to save the world and work at a nonprofit, you know, after business school. And then I was like, no, this is no good. 


    Megan: Well the funny thing about saving the world is again, that can be done from like 24 angles. 


    Friend: It can also be done after you've made the money or after you've made the contacts and made it, you know, so 


    Megan: it's very interesting. 


    Friend: It wasn't. Pure altruism that got me here. 


    Megan: But the output now is altruistic. So it's like you either start or end with the same motive. Right. That's very interesting. Okay. Let's skip then ahead to the next big question I have, which is like the misconception. So for art, we talked about how a lot of times the word artists can be used sort of like a derogatory term or to mean certain things. Right? So what misconceptions have you encountered in the financial world? 


    Friend: Yeah. A lot, a lot from people who, you know, you go to a dinner party and someone's like, what do you do? 


    I work in finance, like end of conversation, like turn the other way, turn to whoever's sitting on your other side. 


    Megan: That's so that's like a bummer. 


    Friend: But that's one of them is that people think it's boring or they don't know how to have a conversation with someone who works in the field: it must be boring work. 


    I also get you know, people think it's mostly men and you know, there's reason for that, but it's not necessarily true anymore. I think that people think that people working in the jobs like the Wall Street film, you know, Michael Douglas back in the eighties, it's all about the money and the nice clothes and the fancy cars and, you know, the people working in there, just in it for the money and, you know, maybe they don't stop and self-reflect on how they can help others. 


    And, maybe that's true. There's probably a portion of people who go in it for that and stay in it for that. And it's mostly young, young and hungry, like in my experience, it's the newer hires that are more likely to come into it with that. But, I don't want to try to debunk them all, but I mean, I would say that there's - 


    Megan: But you're saying there's more to it obviously then the stereotype time. Yeah. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: Which is factual information about every stereotype. 


    Friend: Yeah, exactly. Spoiler alert. It's not all true. I also think that people think it's really hard and hard in a way that it's not accessible. Like, oh, I couldn't do that. I think people think it's harder than it actually, is it. If I were to, can I use another analogy? I'm really outdoing myself. 


    Megan: Love it. 


    Friend: If I were to think of finance as a sport, I would say, it's an endurance race. Sometimes you sprint and it's kind of a panic, but it's an endurance.. Can you keep up with the hours and having your brain pushed to its limits and, constant negotiation and so on, but it's not like weightlifting, it's not heavyweight lifting or gymnastics backflips, you know, it's just like go out for a run and keep running. 


    Megan: And that's really hard, but... 


    Friend: okay. So I am a runner. 


    Megan: She's also a runner, but I think it takes that kind of mind is what you're saying. It's like a consistent, dedicated mind. 


    Friend: Yeah. I don't think that everyone can go out and do backflips. 


    Megan: No! 


    Friend: Or pull (I'd die) trucks with their strength. Do you know? But I do think that. With a little training, 


    most people can go out for a jog. 


    Megan: Yes, I agree. I know it's more accessible than then we would think. That's interesting. I'm sorry. I got so distracted while you were saying that too, because all I was thinking about was what sports analogy is an artist. And TBD, I have no idea. I was thinking like modern dance. 


    I was like, that's so weird. 


    Friend: Oh, I think you could be like interpretive. Anyway, you come back to us on that one. That's fine. 


    Megan: Oh yeah. Okay. So we're going to play a little game called, "Are the following jobs in finance?" 


    Friend: Okay. 


    Megan: Listeners, you may recall this game from the, are these jobs, artists episode two part one. 


    Okay, here we go. Running a small business? Yes, or no finance? 


    Friend: Yes. When you are working on the finances of the business. 


    Megan: Right. A person who invests in Bitcoin? 


    Friend: If it's for a hobby, if it's for their personal, I would say no, but if it's something they're doing on behalf of an institution, yes. 


    Megan: Why? 


    Friend: Because it's speculative investment work in either case. If you're doing it on behalf of an institution, you have controls and governance and policies, and someone looking over your shoulder and you have a risk appetite and you have rules around.. 


    Megan: You have like data that you have to report back on. It's not just .. 


    Friend: Right. It's not just like, that's right it's not for fun. 


    Megan: Right. 


    Friend: It is for a return and you are required in your role to make a return. Whereas if you're just like my friend who plays around with it for fun, just to see what's happening. 


    Megan: Right. 


    Friend: He doesn't have the same guard rails. It's basically a factor of guard rails. 


    Megan: Interesting. Kind of like how we talked about the gatekeepers. 


    Friend: I was just thinking that, and someone might disagree with me, but that's my it's being asked the question so.. 


    Megan: Well, we are the experts. 


    Friend: Yes, in this moment. 


    Megan: No. I mean, like we decided that we were the whole fun part about being like the CEO of ground business. 


    Okay. Someone who collects art, vintage rugs or watches? 


    Friend: I would say it depends on the reason for the collection. So are they collecting it out of, is it a passion? Is it an interest? Is it something they're doing for themselves or are they doing it for the future value of it? and if they're doing it in a way where they're expecting a return on the investment, then it still wouldn't be a job, but they would be, you know, investing, making a financial investment. 


    Megan: Finance adjacent. An accountant for a school. 


    Friend: Yes. Because they are managing the money for the school. 


    Megan: Right. 


    Friend: They're the mom. 


    Megan: And it's like very important as far as not misusing those funds. I can imagine there's a bit of like, um, pressure. 


    Friend: Exactly. And I've got one or two accountants that I think we should hear from, but accountants are definitely on the finance side. They are the people who know where your money is and where it should be. 


    Megan: Right. 


    Friend: Where it's going and where it should be going. 


    Megan: Yes. Okay. A person who analyzes fraud for the government or a private company? 


    Friend: Yes. I'm interpreting that as financial fraud. And so yes, they're trying to investigate. 


    Where is the money? Where is it going? So, yes, they're, they're managing the money. 


    Megan: Okay. And then my last one was just like COVID related, but a financial analyst, but they work from home forever and ever. Always have always will in their sweat pants. 


    Friend: Yes. Yes. I know. I mean, highly paid, sweatpant wearer yes, yes. 


    Megan: What a life. All right. Well, there, we have it. 


    Friend: And I'm sure a number of firms are hiring for those exact kind of roles where they don't care what you're wearing on the bottom half. 


    Megan: It's like the COVID mullet. 


    Friend: Yeah, exactly. 


    Megan: I'm dying to ask you two questions. What are the best parts of being in finance? And what about being in this world really like gets you all fired? 


    Friend: Good question. The best part for me is getting to work with really smart people. That really gets me going. I learned so much just by being in meetings and by meeting people, listening to them, being challenged by their perspective. I think the vast majority of people that I've worked with and people in finance, they're trying to do the best they can for the investors and for the clients. 


    And, so, well, we might have, we might challenge each other a lot to get to that best outcome. They're doing it for the right reasons, you know, they're trying to manage risk and make sure that they're making prudent decisions. And I think, wow, how lucky am I to just like observe these minds at work? 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: I also love change and variety. I don't know that I could do the same thing over and over and over and over. And the banks, they have to keep adapting because the sector adapts it's been changed by technology and it will continue to do so and also regulations and the rules. 


    So those regulations are just like the rules we have to play by, right. The, the rules of the game. And so they have to keep changing what they do internally. And I love that. I love that constant change and innovation from within. I think it's just so exciting. Like that really gets me going. I just find there's always something interesting to do. 


    And if one role starts to get, you know, you've accomplished it and it gets a little flat or same, same, then there's gonna be 10 other interesting roles that you can move into. Yeah. And then, as I mentioned, the travel you know, many of these large banks have customers all over the world and, offices in major cities, right? So we have employees everywhere. We've got offices, we have clients. And so what that means is that usually there's travel involved, not for every role, but, many of the ones that I've been in have been, maybe I, maybe that's one of my selection criteria. But you know, they have like temporary travel, short-term business trips and basically they let us be exchange students. 


    Megan: That's so cool. That is very cool. See you're totally selling it. I'm like quit job as artist. And then there's the money part. 


    Friend: Yes, yes. And the money. The salaries comparative to many other professions, maybe law and medicine would be up there, but compared to many you become a high earner. But the top three for me is really the people, the variety and the travel. 


    Megan: I'm really Interested in the role of women in your world, especially because in my inaccurate stereotype, it's a very male dominated world. So tell me more about that. 


    Friend: Yeah, that's a great question. Really interesting topic. We could probably do the history of women in finance or how it's changing all on its own, but I'll try to give you a quick history of, women in finance and then some of my takeaways about what it's like to work in, what I think people think of as a male dominated field. 


    It's changed a lot just in one generation in our lifetime, even, both from a career and from a consumer perspective. So career like women working in the field, but consumer like women, women going to the bank. I think it was like mid sixties in Canada in the U S and it was 1975 in the UK when women received the right to open up their own bank accounts without having their husband's permission. 


    Megan: Oh my gosh. 


    Friend: That is not that long ago. Right? That means that our grandmothers, if I'm doing the math, right, our grandmothers had like tweens/ teenagers before they could have their own bank accounts, so they can like go in and open a bank account with their teenager. Cause they both had the right at the same time to do it. Right. Like that's not that long ago. 


    Megan: Wild. 


    Friend: So what that means is that until very recently finance and banking in particular is what I'm talking about now. But it was an industry of men serving men. And so that's fine. Right? If the men are all clients, I don't know, like. Hmm, maybe this is going to sound wrong, but like, do you need women working? 


    Like if men, if women are not the consumers, I don't know if we're that bothered about, women work- I don't know, to me it's a little related. Does that make sense? 


    Megan: It's like, it just wasn't our world. 


    Friend: Yeah, from either perspective, either as a work option or as a customer. I don't know if maybe the progress in both of those areas was related or not, but there has been progress in both areas. Right? So from a career perspective, women who are our mothers age now, when they were making decisions about their careers, they would have been unlikely to see executive management at a bank as one of their options. 


    It just wasn't what they were being prepared for in school and, and just socially. 


    Megan: Right. 


    Friend: Do you know anybody, can you think of women in their 50s, 60s, 70s who ran a bank or was a manager at a bank? And not a branch. 


    Megan: No. 


    Friend: Yeah. Me neither, I was thinking about it as we were preparing you. I don't know of any who started that way. I know some women in their fifties now who are there. 


    Megan: Right. They're now but they didn't get out of college and start there. 


    Friend: Right. And so I thought, okay, well, what were they hearing? Like what were their influences when they were trying to decide on their career and when they were in college or university. 


    And so in, in like mid sixties, early seventies, we started to have equal pay for equal work. Right? So before then that wasn't even a concept that men and women would get paid the same for doing the same job. The first - yeah, head smack, the first time a woman worked on the New York Stock Exchange was late sixties. 


    In 1968, a rule came into effect where you can no longer specify what kind of gender you wanted when you were hiring. So up to 1968, you could say, this is for men only. Women. Women need not apply. 1972 was the first time that a woman became a CEO of a Fortune 500 company. And that was Katherine Graham of the Washington Post. 


    Then we had equal credit opportunity. So what that means is that men and women have the same, availability of credit. Like you don't have to bring your dad with you to get a credit card that was 1974. Right. We didn't have a, a woman owned commercial bank until 1975 in New York. We didn't sort out the pregnancy discrimination issues until almost 1980. Sexual harassment wasn't really dealt with and defined until, you know what I mean? Like there wasn't, there wasn't really an environment for women to work in this industry in a fair and safe way. 


    Megan: Wow. Which then, you know, trickles down like this. It's like, it's like, it takes so much time. Maybe the law is enacted. And then like all of a sudden we realized that it still hasn't really taken hold. 


    Friend: Exactly. So between, let's say the eighties, and this is what I mean about in our lifetime, like in the last 30 to 40 years, the role in the eighties and nineties, I think of women working in finance, if they dared, was to break down the barriers and show that it was possible to not just be a secretary, but to be a trader, you know, to trade on the New York stock exchange or to be A fund manager, right. Like to actually manage money, and to really be a pioneer in a new space. 


    So, yeah. So this is all great. that's kind of the like, wow. There's some really great news here, right? Today for the modern listener, the women in finance, the role of women in finance, it looks very different. We had in 2017, the first female CEO of a global stock exchange was put in place. 


    Last year, last year, like 2020, 2021 was the first time a woman became CEO at a top tier bank. Right. Like that. That took a long time, but it's great news it's happened now. Okay. Let's you know, um, meanwhile, we're still waiting for a female president, right? 


    Megan: Right. 


    Friend: Many other countries have already solved that one, but in the U S, no. 


    So, as of today, of the fortune 500, so that's 500 companies, right. There are 41 female CEOs, which is low, but it's 41. It was remember it was (it's better than of the zero), zero, right? Like Katherine Graham was the first one ever in 1972. So 41 is, it's not enough but it's something. 


    Megan: Interesting. 


    Friend: And then what's interesting is that we're starting to get profiling of women in finance and media coverage, and it's starting to become, I don't want to say news, but it's starting to become interesting regular reading, you know, like the 30, under 30, 40, under 40, they have that same thing for women in finance. 


    So there's a hundred women in finance, most powerful women in finance. Most influential women in fin- there's a bunch of these publications and we'll link to them in the show notes, but I think that's really cool. And they profile the women. It's not just like, here's their name, you know, it's like you can read about their career journey. 


    And then finally, what I am most excited about and for all our RBG fans this will probably be meaningful to you. We have who I like to think of as the RBG of finance in Janet Yellen. She was the first Chair of the Federal Reserve, which is the central bank in the U S and she is now the US Treasury Secretary, which means that she like the Treasury is the pot of money. 


    Megan: Right. 


    Friend: Right. And, she served as chair on the Economic Council under Clinton. She's the only person ever to have all three of those roles. Right. So she's like Janet Yellen is my superhero. So you know, that's a lot, that's a lot of good news. 


    Megan: I mean, there's a lot of good change. It's hard to watch change happen slowly, right? We're seeing this 1970s timeline thinking, holy crap, it takes this long, but better than not, I guess is my takeaway. 


    Friend: Yeah. Better than not exactly. There's one area where I think we're still not there. And that is that in the entry-level roles in finance, we have a really good split. 


    It's a very even 50 /50, depending on which sub-sector like, if you're in cash management or payments versus if you're in a hedge fund or if you're in a bank, but on average, it's like a 50/ 50 split of entry-level roles between men and women, which is amazing. So the, the financial services industry is hiring equal numbers of men and women. And that means that women are applying for the roles and getting them. Right. 


    Megan: Right. 


    Friend: That's awesome. 


    Megan: Huge. 


    Friend: But, and this is where I think the work has to come and it will come hopefully still in our lifetime: the ratio of men to women changes as you get more senior. 


    So the more senior, the role in finance, the less likely it will be, uh, inhabited by a woman. So on the way to the top, we lose, it's like we have all these exit ramps and they just de-select, or they don't get promoted at the same rate as the men. And there's all sorts of studies about that. For every a hundred men promoted how many women, how many women of color and so on. 


    So we know, like we know that the women are not getting promoted at the same rate. They are also opting out, right. They're opting out for family related reasons and other reasons that they exit. So on average, so we were 50 /50 at the start. Like if you're a junior and you just started your career, 50/ 50, men, and women. On average, from what I could find in my research at those senior, like executive or C-level roles, it's like five to 10% are women. and it's not enough. Right. Especially when there's been all this work done around how women are good as executives because they make decisions in a different way from men. 


    And they're, you know there are many good reasons why we need more women running the industry. Unless you're in Norway, Norway is the shining silver lining here. And Norway put a rule in place in 2008, that 40% of boards of large companies had to be women. And so they've just mandated it, which is one way to get there. 


    And not all firms are the same. Some of them are more insistent that they have an even mix at the board level or at the top executive level. But, that's where the work is. 


    Megan: I think we need to have another episode with a woman who has left. I want to explore this a little bit more because I would say the reason women are not making it to the top may not have as much to do with the internal structure as societal pressure. 


    Friend: Yeah. I would love to hear from someone who has made the decision to leave, not because the opportunity wasn't there, but because life was hard. I think it's just a lot to be the person who manages the household and the family and the person who has this big shiny career. 


    Megan: Yeah. It sounds wild. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: Super interesting. But it's hope -there's hopeful tidbits there. So that's cool. 


    Friend: Yeah. There's a little shining light. I think the role today for me and my peers is to just make certain that if the barriers are internal on the way to the top, that we do what we can to remove them . So more flexibility, and we're starting to be coached around managing other women, how to help remove barriers for them. It basically comes down to increased flexibility and then to just demonstrate that we will hold the door open for you. We will make it possible. Let's, let's talk about how we make it possible. If you want, if that's something you want. And just keep pointing out, there's no ceiling here. It's a self limiter. Right? If it's not something you're interested in fine no problem, but if it is, we'll make a way, I think that's really the role for today's female managers in finance. 


    Megan: Very interesting. And then for you personally, what was the male dominated experience? Like? What was it like? Starting out because now it might be 50 50, but when you started, was it different? 


    Friend: No, because when I started it, I was junior. Right. And it wasn't that it's not like I've been doing this for 30 years. 


    Right. So I think that for me it's been neutral skewing to positive. Like, I haven't really, I, and I know this is not everyone's experience, but I went back and I thought about my past managers. The split was, I've had four female managers and seven male managers. So it is a little bit skewed that way as I got into it. but I had one, like, there's always a story, right? Like there's always 


    Megan: But in every industry there's this person.. 


    Friend: You were telling us about the gentlemen who insisted you're right. There's always, there's always that. And there was one and his specialty was trying to get every woman on the floor to cry. Like he just went around on a rampage and, you know, I mean, that was just what he did. 


    Megan: His jam. 


    Friend: Uh, side note. He did not make me cry. Um, Yeah. So there's stories, but to me, that's not the whole story. And I've had some really fabulous male managers who have been supportive and encouraging and put me forward and, you know, no drama. The best ones always encouraged me to just be myself, like manage as myself, not try to be more masculine or someone that I wasn't. So I think that I've had a really good run and I know that's just an anecdote, it's not data, but, I would say there's good there. 


    There's good to be found there. And if you don't find it, move. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: Move until you find it. 


    Megan: Or become the kind of woman that scoots to the top and then makes sure that the environment is better. That's your advocacy, that's your like, way to change the world, right. Is to be the woman that is holding the door open and encouraging a more positive environment. 


    Friend: Yeah. And you have two choices there. Right? You can, if you came through a rough environment, you can perpetuate more of the same, right? 


    Megan: Right. 


    Friend: Or you can say I'm going to consciously unlearn that or provide a different environment for people that work for me. And I think it's just a choice. 


    Megan: Yeah. For a next question. We'll do a couple more. What are the generalizations that you personally hear in your space about women in finance? 


    Friend: The first one is, especially because I spent some time in investment banking, which is the sharper sharper end of things. The first one is like, women are nasty, you know? 


    And they're, they're like --- basically. So we'll just bleep that out. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: And I actually asked my husband this, cause he's worked his whole career in finance as well. And I was like, what do you think some of these, you know, and we compared notes. So we agreed. We agreed that we hear often, "women are too emotional for this work." 


    I think that's a big one. And they're more risk averse. Women are more risk averse, which is not necessarily a negative if you're trying to manage risk. 


    Megan: I know. 


    Friend: Right. And then the one that he hears, sort of as a caution is, women will not be able to take care of both their kids and their career. 


    Kind of like your gentleman in the gallery, Just be careful hiring women because they'll put their kids first or something twisted. 


    Megan: Oh my gosh. 


    Friend: You know, you hear that from people as you, as you go through. And, so those are some that I've heard. 


    Megan: That's so wild. Um, obviously you don't really agree with the generalizations. 


    Friend: Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, listen, generalizations are here for a reason. They help our brains. Right. They help us to get quicker through things we have to think about. And I think they're good. And helpful until you have better information. And then you have to be willing to take down what you had put there as something you understood, as a generalization. So you, you get closer and you work with somebody and you learn and then like break off those chains of, of what you thought was so simple. I also find them, I think you mentioned this as well. Like I'm a little motivated by it. 


    You know, for those of us with a little rebellious streak, I want to prove you wrong. So it doesn't, it doesn't so much bother me. I kind of ignore them and just do my own thing. But if there's some point where it does have have an impact, it's because I'm like, "whatever I'm going to prove you wrong." 


    Megan: That's awesome. I feel like women wanting to prove people wrong is, is the wild streak that is necessary for being a happy adult. You know, like it really does help to be not to have thick skin because I kind of, I don't love that expression. Because we are compassionate people, but I feel like you have to be able to be like, no, I'm, I'm not that, here's why I'm really good at X, Y, and Z. 


    Friend: And just push through. Just ignore. 


    Megan: Okay. I have last question. Do you love what you do for a living? 


    Friend: Yes, I do. It's been so much more fun than I had imagined. I too thought it would be boring and there've been days, you know, there's been days. But on the whole, it's been fascinating. And you know, I think of it is a little bit like, you know, you're teaching kids to swim or teaching them to bike and then they get it and then they look back at you and they're like, "I'm doing it!"" I'm riding my bike" or "I'm swimming." You know, that look back for affirmation. That's how I feel about this work. I feel like I look back at my mentors and the people who spoke in to my life to say like, you can do it, who have helped me to get to where I am and I look back and I think like, I'm doing it, it's working and it's fun. And I enjoy it. And yeah, it's good. 


    Megan: I love that for you. 


    Friend: Yeah. And as you can tell, I love talking about it and, hopefully that wasn't too long-winded, but I really am passionate about making it accessible. It's not that hard. It's hard, but it's not that hard and we all need some sort of language around it to try to make it not so scary. There's no monsters under the bed here. 


    Megan: Yeah. We're all about the demystification. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: Is that a word? 


    Friend: I don't know. 


    Megan: All right. So one of the things we're going to do here at The Art$ is continue to create that language for talking about art and money. And, you know, the discomfort zone is a big topic we're going to talk about. 


    So we need to revisit those graphics from the last episode. So. There were two, we started with the money and mind grid. And then there's another one. Can you describe the other one to our listeners? 


    Friend: Yeah, for sure. For sure. We wanted to have this common language and visuals around you know, art and money. The one that we didn't talk about last week, it's a very simple scale. It's like a one to 10 scale and it gives us a reference to think about just like a, check-in a self check-in on our comfort level about talking about money. So it's as simple as on a scale of one to 10, how comfortable are you talking about money? 


    At one, we have Avoid, so you're not comfortable at all. At 10 we have Embrace, so you're like, you love it. Like you want to have a big hug and talk about money. And then in the middle we have Tolerate, like I'll, you know, I'll let you talk to me but I won't enjoy it. Yeah. Where did you place yourself on the scale? 


    Megan: I mean, as always, I have the longest answer, but I'm gonna try and make this short. I think I'm a four, because I'm a definitely a former avoider for many reasons, but I'm definitely becoming braver. I'm learning to tolerate, I think the number's going to go up, like, even as we talk. On this podcast just talking about. 


    Friend: Let's check in over time and see how it changes. So four is like on the left of like Tolerate. 


    Megan: A former avoider becoming brave, you know, where are you on the scale? And you know, like, I know you did better than me. 


    Friend: Oh, I wouldn't say there's such a thing as scoring better. This is not listen, overachiever. 


    This is not about a perfect score. I would say maybe just more seasoned or more, you know, exposed to it. I placed myself as a nine. 


    Megan: Okay. 


    Friend: So nearly, you know, nearly a full embrace. That's a little more involved than a side hug. It's like, you can, you know, get up in my business a little and I'll get up in yours. 


    Megan: I like that. 


    Friend: I think it's exposure that got me there. I do, like I grew up in a house, where we talked about finances, the programs and the courses of study, the industry I'm in, of course, I'm also, I think I'm just a little bit awkward, where I just don't have a filter. 


    And so I ask stuff. My mum was on the money train early with us. She was like, here's an allowance and you have to manage that. And you know, you should tithe some money to the church and you should have a marketable skill where you're going to earn some money you can live on. That kind of thing. We think we'll talk to our moms, if they agree. 


    Megan: Just force them on here. 


    Friend: So yeah, I think, you know, this is going to be something that I'm hoping we'll start with when we have guests is to ask them, you know, where are they? And it gives us a sense for who we're dealing with. We don't want to push people too far, but, we do want to have transparent conversations and maybe eek up their tolerance a little bit. 


    Megan: I mean, you know, I love these visuals. It's really helped me to chart out my comfort versus discomfort, on things like talking about money or spending. 


    So the challenge alone is really interesting. And when you feel challenged, you kind of want to have more information about why. So this is all part of the bigger picture here. Can you remind our listeners where they can find these cool tools? 


    Friend: Yes. We are going to link the tools in the show notes for both episodes part one, and part two of Labels and Language. 


    They're also going to be hosted on art by megan.com forward slash podcast. 


    Megan: All right, last week I assigned a simple homework task where you had to notice how many times you complimented someone or used the word "creative." How'd you do? 


    Friend: Um, well sort of fail on the complimenting. But you look lovely today. 


    Megan: This is too late. 


    Friend: There, not so bad, too late? I just got it in right now. I found myself complimenting my mother and my husband, which I think is okay. I wasn't so comfortable at work. I just, I think I get task-oriented and I just don't stop and verbalize what I'm seeing. 


    And I see things like I see, oh, that person looked nice or whatever, but I, I don't, uh, verbalize it. 


    Megan: I mean, I think I'm just like, we're just really nice people. That's my sentiment. I just like complimenting other people, I think. 


    Friend: Well, I imagined this week that you walked around with like a basket and showered them. 


    You just like tossed them out at people. 


    Megan: I have like a muffin attached to like a little like "You're great." It has like a gift tag on it. And I'm like, "you did it!" Okay. 


    Friend: You know that scene in Love Actually. Have you seen Love Actually? 


    Megan: Yes. 


    Friend: When the guy with the basket of muffins, he like tosses them all out like, they're not necessarily the appropriate, to the that's right. Like I could see you just being like, Hey, your hair is beautiful. 


    Megan: Yes. That's precisely what I did. Also though I don't compliment myself enough. So there's that? 


    Friend: Oh yeah. That's what mirrors are for. 


    Megan: But I noticed it, I was like, oh, Hmm, interesting. So that's something. 


    I mean, I could just start myself all day, but I'm not going to like, "girl." 


    Friend: No, but we know you, you have a high need to get many things accomplished, so that's not going to work. 


    Megan: Yeah. True. Okay. It's your turn to assign us something for homework. 


    Friend: I purposely skimmed over a lot of the women in finance profiles earlier. So this week, what I wanted to recommend is to take a look at those profiles of some of the influential women in finance. 


    We're going to link to them in the show notes. Google, Janet Yellen, two LLs. Just notice, like, have a look at, you know, how old are they? What were their career journeys? Where else have they worked? What roles are they in? I think it'll be really inspiring. And I would love to hear who stuck out or what was interesting. 


    So I'm not going to be too prescriptive there, but just have a look at someone amazing in the field of finance. Okay. And also maybe can I say, like, maybe notice what she's wearing, because I'm also fascinated by how these women are photographed and maybe I shouldn't be, because maybe I'm not for the men, but the men are always wearing a suit and a tie and for women it's, you know, it's a little more complex and I think I saw a trend, but I wasn't sure. 


    And I was wondering if anyone else would observe that. 


    Megan: A whole new episode. 


    Friend: Hint-hint. Yeah. 


    Megan: Oh, I love that. Um, okay. We can do this. It's not scary and go us. 


    Friend: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I will be painting with you and you will be doing spreadsheets in no time. 


    Megan: Progress. 


    Friend: Awesome. All right. Well, that brings us to the end of the third episode. 


    We hope you enjoyed part two of Labels and Language. I personally hope that you learned something new, and maybe made some reevaluations of some of the generalizations and stereotypes. Maybe you have a new analogy that you can work off of for finance. So hopefully a few helpful things there. 


    Megan: I loved interviewing you and hearing all your answers, you are very brave to enter this world. 


    And I mean it, because I just didn't even consider it. And we're the exact same age and didn't grow up in similar backgrounds. But I think that I just never even saw it on the platter of options. So I think it's brave just to pursue something that's maybe still new for women. Right. And so it's impressive to me that you entered a world that was full of people that were not like you. 


    And so that's just pretty awesome. Join us. You're welcome. Join us next week for our discussion with our very dear friend, Kristen Poissant. 


    Friend: Yes. Kristen, we love her and you're going to love her. So can't wait to chat with you again soon. 


    Megan: Yeah. Heart you friend. 


    Until then this is Megan of Art by Megan. 


    Friend: And her friend, your patron of the arts. 


    Megan: Wishing you more art. 


    Friend: And maybe, a better understanding of your money. 


    Yay. 


    The Art$ is a production of the Art by Megan Studio. This podcast is created, produced, recorded and researched by Megan and her friend and edited by Hanna Nakano. The views in this recording are the personal views of the co-hosts and their guests. Their commentary is provided for general information purposes only and does not constitute financial, investment, tax, legal, or accounting advice, nor does it constitute an offer or solicitation to buy or sell any art or financial products. 


    In other words, we're doing this for fun and we hope you enjoy it, but you should still call your account. And your mother.

Third and Fourth
Episode 002 - Labels and Language (Part 1)

Friend interviews Megan about the impact of labels and language on her work and self-identity, and how words can hinder or help our understanding of people working in creative fields. We remind our audience that the whole point of this podcast is to enter the “discomfort zone.” There’s also a great debate about art vs fine art, and artist vs. creative.

Listen, follow and review us on your go-to podcast directory: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | Google Podcasts

Show Notes

  • The Met Museum

    The Costume Institute’s In America: A Lexicon of Fashion exhibit at the Anna Wintour Costume Center runs until September 5, 2022.

    “Eloquency” - not a word!

    The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron

    Dictionary Definition of “Art”: “the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.”

    The Art$’ Money-Mind Grid is on our Free Resources page

    Homework: Notice how often you compliment someone this week.

    We would love to hear from you! Email us your questions and ideas at podcast at artbymegan dot com

  • Arts 002 - Labels and Language Part 1 


    __

    Megan: All right. We're on Episode Two, Labels and Language, Part One. 


    Friend: Welcome to The Arts, a brand new podcast about art and money. I've spent my career managing at some of the world's largest financial institutions. So I can't tell you my name, but trust me, talking about money is my jam. 


    Megan: And I'm Megan, I'm an artist and a teacher. And now co-host of this amazing podcast. 


    We're having this conversation because we came to a realization. We have no idea how the other person spends her work day. 


    Friend: Or her money. So let's chat about it. 


    Megan: Hey friend, 


    Friend: Hey Megan. 


    Megan: I've been so looking forward to this, like since the last time we recorded. 


    Friend: Yeah, me too. And we did a good job, you know, we didn't scare each other off. 


    Megan: I mean, I have some time for that. So just, you know, pace yourself. We hinted at this a little bit at the end of our last episode, but would you remind our listeners what's happening today? 


    Friend: For sure. So on today's show, we're going to explore why it's worth remembering how important words are. And that as one of my favorite colleagues likes to say, "words mean things." 


    I'm going to ask Megan about art jargon and some of these labels and the related language and how it can have the power to either limit us or unleash us. 


    Megan: Episode Two!, we're killing it to can't wait. And then onto the next episode, I'm going to ask you some of the same questions about your field. 


    Friend: That sounds lovely. And how balanced, as one one would expect now that we're basically podcast pros. 


    Megan: I mean, we do have topics, structure, music, everything it's all happening. But first we'll start today's podcast episode with The Scene, which is our version of what is nerdy cool about the art and finance world. And if we have time at the end, we'll check back in on the homework that we gave ourselves last week. 


    My three-year-old ate my homework for real. 


    Friend: Not buying it. He has better parents than that. Okay. Let's get started. 


    The Scene. 


    I would normally be more polite and defer to you to go first, but I've been waiting for weeks now to tell you about this exhibit that I went to see. And I think I might forget about it or lose some of my awe for it. Is that a thing, forgetting? 


    Megan: Yes, you have to tell it while it's still fresh. So please share. 


    Friend: Okay. All right. And it, it relates closely to what we want to talk about today. So remember when you last came to visit in New York and we tried to get into the costume exhibit at The Met? 


    Megan: I miss New York so much. Do you want me to cry on this podcast? 


    Friend: Well, New York misses you. So the Costume Institute is part of a set exhibit at the Met in New York. 


    And I didn't know this, but it's popular, very popular, frequently queues, people waiting to get in. So you can't just like on a whim. Normal Saturday, just rock up there and be like, I'll just walk through. You have to get in line and get there early. And so I took a day off and I went first thing as the museum opened. 


    And so it's the Anna Wintour Costume Center. The exhibit that's running right now is called, "In America, a Lexicon of Fashion." And it's running for the next few months. Which is good. Cause we're, pre-recording this. But it starts with this look at when we're describing European fashion, why do we give it this beautiful language of design and art. 


    And then when we're talking about American fashion, why do we. You know, not really have such eloquence, eloquency, eloquent? And why are we not so eloquent? Which is.. 


    Megan: Hold on, we'll put it in the show notes. 


    Friend: Oh no. This part will be stripped out. And when it comes to talking about American fashion, why are we not so eloquent? 


    Or why are we more functional in the way that we describe it? And then the exhibit has one piece from the last 30 or 40 years from all of the major American designers and they each have their own sort of light booth if you will, or their, their own display. And I mean, I could have stayed all day. 


    I just, I loved it. I loved getting up close to these pieces and being able to identify without reading the label. Who's like, oh, that's Tommy Hilfiger and that's Michael Kors. And that's.. 


    Megan: There is so much design. I mean, I don't know much about fashion design, but I can imagine there's like a lot to learn. 


    Friend: It was a lot to learn. And then in one section the task of the designer was to choose one word to describe their style or, or the piece that they had designed and to really work work like it wasn't functional expression. It was creative expression and it was beautiful too. I mean, maybe that's the nerd in me coming up, but I love words. 


    And and I love fashion. And so anyways, well worth a visit. It really stunned me. I think I took a picture of every single piece in there, and sometimes when I'm bored, I flip through it and like, look at the ruffles and the sequins and make myself happy. 


    Megan: That's actually, I really interesting to me because that's such a good sign of a good show. 


    Right? There's so many elements to it that have to be. Pre determined, right. For it to be something that draws you in that much. And yeah, maybe it was like, you're a huge fashion fan. And you also were very curious just generally, but for you to be. That interested in something that maybe you didn't even know, you're like, that's pretty cool. 


    Friend: Yeah. I knew I was into fashion. I I've always loved clothes since I was little, but I have never really seen it done this well in an exhibit. And so anyways, it's running for the next few months. We'll put the information in the show notes and me, you know, well, well worth the time. I would mark an hour for it, at least if you're at all interested in clothes. Or words. 


    Megan: Sounds like I'm booking a weekend to NY. 


    Friend: Yes. Yeah. We'll go. Let's, you know, next time now we know we'll just need to show up earlier. The museum usually opens around 10 and so I was there at 10 and I just walked in. Yeah. 


    Megan: It sounds really interesting. And I like how you're talking about what basically we're talking about today, which is that like the prestige given to one thing versus the maybe commonplace definition of another thing that's really. 


    Friend: Yeah, exactly. So thank you. Thanks for letting me go first. 


    Megan: Of course. Okay. So I can't top your answer this week because I don't live in New York anymore, but I'm going to share that what I'm reading. It's something that I used to think was very woo. Woo. You know, like maybe a little too out there for me, but I'm rereading something from art school. 


    Well, I went to a state school, but from art, from my art education, it's called The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. And it's so good. Now it's age appropriate for me. And it's very interesting for me to reflect on how I reacted to it as a 20 year old versus many years later. So, it's for me summarizing a lot of the ways to reignite my creativity, which I do not need any inspiration on that. 


    I have the opposite problem because I just need more time, but it also gave me a reminder of two creative habit. For people in the book, they say, you know, she says, try these two things out. One is called Morning Pages where you write three pages of free flowing thoughts every day, which I don't journal. 


    I'm a word person, but not in a way where I need to write. So this is like a completely new habit for me. And I'm loving it. And then the second, which I needed a reminder, but I do already, which is called Artist Dates where you take yourself on like a creative adventure every week. I mean, This is huge. 


    So this is officially my new year's resolution. 


    Friend: Oh, I love that. Oh, well, that's going to dovetail really nicely with The Scene then you'll have to do it for two reasons because Julia Cameron said, and because you have things to talk about here. Oh, my gosh I had forgotten about morning pages, you know? 


    I think I need to go back and look at like, what else has she published? Because for me, it was also around the same time I was in university and trying to get the writing flowing. And from then, until now it's changed the way I'm able to write. I feel like I hold myself back less. 


    I'll just sit down and do it. And she has this great way of encouraging you to just remove that barrier. Like just get over it. Yeah. And see what comes out. 


    Megan: I'm like already amazed at what I've written. It's very shocking. 


    Friend: Oh man. That's a whole thing right there. Julia Cameron The Artists Way you can just drop that on us like that. 


    Megan: Episode seven. 


    Friend: It might totally distract me from the The Main Exhibit today. 


    Megan: No, no. 


    Friend: All right. 


    The Main Exhibit. 


    So words, let's have a few words about words. 


    Megan: Word. 


    Friend: How long had you planned that one? 


    Megan: All my life. 


    Friend: Well-played okay. I thought we could start with the basics. Like, what are you talking about when you say this? Are we on the same page, and then work our way up to maybe defining a language that we could use? More specifically here on the podcast. 


    Megan: Word. I'm ready. 


    Friend: First question. What is "Art"? Or what's your definition of art? 


    Megan: All right. She's just like hitting me. Like there's no time to waste. Okay. Art to me is, "that which is created by someone who is inspired or exploring an idea." I really thought hard about this definition. I'm reading it because I had to write one down: inspired or exploring an idea. 


    All right. I don't think for me personally, that there's a differentiation between whether or not it's a hobby profession or a side hustle or any amalgamation of those, but what's more important is that the creator is creating something for themselves. 


    So it's their idea that they have to get out. It's like an out-of-body experience almost where you have to create, or you feel like there's something missing. It's like a writer, right? Like a really good writer is writing kind of for themselves. They're maybe not writing with the intention to dot.dot.dot. 


    And then there's a dictionary definition, which I also kind of explored, which is, "the expression or application of human, creative skill and imagination. Typically in a visual form, such as painting or sculpture. Producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power." Now that's a lot right there. 


    Friend: I like that. 


    Megan: Yeah. I mean, they're kind of, I didn't cheat. Like I didn't look that up and then think of mine, which I was proud of. Like, wow, I know what I'm talking about. Okay. Before we get too deep into this though, I have a disclaimer. 


    I think personally that there are many types of art that have been considered art, A R T capital A because of the traditional gatekeepers who determine what is art. And when I say traditional gatekeepers, I mean, mostly European white men. Who say this equals art. And so now that that is changing. 


    And by that, I mean, like museums are changing. Art curators are changing. The art world is changing. Art has by definition changed, which is awesome. So it's very exciting. 


    Friend: That's exciting. We're going to talk about that in the next episode, but that's a similar story to what's happening or what has happened in finance. 


    The gatekeepers are moving. Or being moved. Let me just make sure I'm following you here. And this is a little off script, but I just have one of follow-up to that is, is fine. Art. I know this is probably really basic, but is fine. art a subset of art? And is there unfine art or not fine art? 


    Megan: I guess, I guess it depends who you ask. Right? 


    Friend: Okay. So when we're going to talk about art on this podcast. Are we talking about art or fine art? 


    Megan: I personally would like to be categorized as a fine artist. I do it professionally and I've studied it my whole life, but I don't know if I respond for everyone. So maybe when we will explore this more, when we ask our guests more. 


    Friend: Yeah, no, that, that makes sense. I'm gonna roll into another followup question from there then, because honestly, I don't know if I know the difference or know what's in and out. And so I have a few things here I wanted to know if you would consider the following as art. 


    So I'm just going to ask you and be like, is this art yes or no? Okay. All right. 


    Singing? 


    Megan: Yes. 


    Friend: Singing karaoke? 


    Megan: No. 


    Friend: Why not? 


    Megan: Because I can't, I personal experience only that's my gut reaction. 


    Friend: It just doesn't sound like it. Or it's it's plagiarism. 


    Megan: Or it's just not my art form for sure. 


    Friend: Okay. Sewing? 


    Megan: I'm going to say it's not, but there's a section of art called craft that sewing falls under. So it's a complex answer. 


    Friend: Oh, we're nesting sewing within craft within art. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: Okay. 


    Megan: And I think art that was called craft was named craft by men because it was art by women. I'm not kidding. Like there's a whole subset of art that was not yet considered art until recently, but it has been art for thousands and millions of years. 


    Friend: Right. And certainly sewing as we were talking earlier, if you are at House of Givenchy like you're sewing, you are an artist, you are a sewing artists. 


    Megan: So this is a gatekeeper issue. 


    Friend: Good to know. All right. Next one, inventing a new product? 


    Megan: I personally think inventors are artists because of the creativity required to think of something new, completely new that does not yet exist. 


    Friend: What if I dress up in my favorite costume and I go to Comicon? 


    Megan: I'm gonna go with the pleading, the fifth aka gatekeeper issue. I don't know if it warrants.. I don't know if it garners the same respect.. 


    I mean, personally me putting on a Pokemon outfit. It doesn't seem like art, but it's maybe like a dress street art. Again, I'm not the gatekeeper, you know? 


    Friend: No, I know. I'm just, I guess I'm just trying to funny, trying to be funny. I mean, for some people that's their creative expression. Does that make it art? 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: Okay. This is, I already know the answer to this one because it's in the same bucket as sewing, I guess -knitting? 


    Megan: Yeah. It's an art form for sure. Nested under craft. Okay. So, which was problematic and we can explore later. 


    Friend: Okay. How about in my evenings to give my brain a break, I color in an adult coloring book? 


    Megan: I think that files under meditation. 


    Friend: Okay. 


    Not art. 


    Interesting. 


    Megan: You're not expressing a thing you must get out. You're just doing a mindless task. That feels nice. 


    Friend: Filling in the blanks. Okay, so that's coloring books. What if I was like, I need to draw this face. I saw on the subway and I get out my pencils and my notebook? 


    Megan: That's I think more on the art column. We need to make a graphic for this. Now that I'm thinking about this, this is going to be interesting. There's a Venn diagram forming. 


    Friend: There's totally a Venn diagram for this. All right. What about makeup -doing your own makeup? 


    Megan: Oh, definitely an art form. 


    Friend: Yes - my own? 


    Megan: I think so. 


    Maybe not on your, well, what do you think it's an art form because it's, self-expression. 


    Friend: It's painting on your face. 


    Megan: Yeah. Especially if you can do it. Well, I think it's art. 


    Friend: Cool. 


    Megan: I know, shocking. 


    Friend: I know. I thought you would say no on that one. Writing? 


    Megan: Art because it's like stuck in your brain. You have to get it out. I know you've got one. 


    Friend: I've got one. I can put one thing on my list here. I don't do all of these things. Certainly not the Comicon. Okay. We're going to get letters .. 


    Megan: From all the... Yes. 


    Friend: How about cooking? 


    Megan: To some people? Yes. It's an art form. People who do it well. Or must do it as a form of self expression. 


    I'm just going to keep defaulting to that. Me when I cook, not an art form, period, it's pure. It's just putting food on people's. 


    Friend: All right. What about baking? 


    Megan: Same. 


    Friend: Okay. All right. And then last one, making your own analog dance videos? 


    Megan: This is a personal question, not from one of our viewers - 


    Friend: Asking for a Friend. 


    Megan: Our co-host here. If it brings you joy and it's a form of self-expression. We can file it under art. 


    Friend: Alright, two, I get two in the column. Okay. That was good. I think that helped to put some color around your definition. Do you see what I did there? I made an art joke. 


    Megan: I love an art joke. 


    Friend: Yeah. All right. Next level question. What is a creative? 


    Megan: Okay. A creative. Is anyone involved in a creative field let's say, but I think of it more as a really loose, recently popular term for describing someone who either brainstorms well or invents things for a living or works in tech or is an artist. I am not. Sure how I feel about how the word is being used. 


    Friend: Right. That's what I was wondering. Because I'd like to remove it from my lexicon, if it's like, is it coming across as derogatory or is it more aspirational? Is it like, " this is Megan. She's a creative. There's probably something better I could call you. 


    Megan: I prefer artist and I don't know if my answer would have been the same five or 10 years ago, but I've learned a lot recently. And I think that's my answer. I prefer being called an artist. A creative to me. It doesn't, it doesn't have the same panache. Right? It's like it doesn't garner the same amount of respect. It also can be used much more often from what I've experienced in a derogatory way. I also think it's heavily gendered. So - 


    Friend: Creative is heavily gendered? Towards women, more used for women? 


    Megan: Yes. I think a man who paints for a living is an artist. A mother like myself, who paints for a living is a creative it's messed up. 


    Friend: That's messed up. 


    Megan: Like literally, I'm a mom who paints. Some people have called me a mommy blogger and I'm like, no, what? Like no offense to mommy bloggers, but that's not appropriate. A man who has a website who paints, who's a father. That's not, anyways. That's a whole another conversation. A man who works for apple is a tech guy, a woman who owns her own tech startup is often called a creative from what I've read and seen. 


    Friend: Oh, wow. Okay. So there is a difference in the differences that one is... more specific to their trade? 


    Megan: I mean, I do think it's gendered. I just think what I've seen the word creative become is I think it's one of those terms. That's trying to include everyone, but in doing so is a problematic. 


    Friend: Right. Okay. So artists are like a special... 


    Megan: I mean, yeah, so I think - 


    Friend: Full-stop: artists are special. 


    Megan: Episode is over, I think the Venn diagram for this would show a lot of overlap, for example. Artists are a small segment within a community of creatives or creative community, however you want to call it. But I also think there's so many other people that are quote unquote creative, right? 


    So like elementary school teachers are probably the most creative people on earth. They're creatives. Scientists are inherently like they have to be creative to solve a problem and inventor, same thing, but artists traditionally, you know, they're creative, but they're making something with their hands. To express inner thoughts or feelings or to critique some sort of element in society. 


    So I think there's probably just better words to define different fields. 


    Friend: Yeah. There's something here about this like that need to express that worries me. Because I haven't been trained or encouraged in my field to express things that way. To express them visually, let's say or audibly, you express with numbers. 


    Like we use numbers to tell a story, you know, we use charts and tables. You can, you know, my mind works in tables and it worries me that I could, it would be a long journey or I could never be an artist because I don't know how to express that way. Does that make sense? 


    Megan: That completely makes sense. But from the other perspective, what I can tell you is that my. 


    Almost my entire life. I tried to avoid becoming an artist for mostly financial reasons. There are so many good segues, but I, I tried to avoid this at all costs and at the recommendation of many smart, intelligent people that I respect, but I couldn't. So an artist to me is like this inner calling. 


    Friend: Oh, interesting. So does that mean that you can't make yourself be an artist? Like if I want to be a painter, but I actually don't have, and I felt this with the writing, by the way, at first I wanted to be a writer, but I actually had nothing interesting to say, is it the same, do you think, with painting? Like if I wanted to paint. But have nothing that is burning to come out of me then am I a hobbyist? Am I a bad painter? Or could I be an artist? 


    Megan: I mean, this is like, there's this shirt out there that I want to buy so badly that says, "men have made a lot of bad art," you know, it's like, but they, but it's like, whatever you want to call yourself, you can be. 


    So you're your own gatekeepers step one. And then you have to just convince other people to like you. There's a lot of marketing involved here that has nothing to do with talent. And then there's like inner burning need to do things which oftentimes does not correlate to international fame and success. 


    Right. So it's on like two different columns. 


    Friend: Do you know who I think would be good to talk to about this? I know is Amanda because her current, like she's currently working. Exactly. Each of her pieces is like, here's what the emotion was or what the, you know, the feeling was something that we can go there. 


    There. Yeah. All right. Cool. So note to self and to our listeners, refer to Megan from here on, in as an artist. And I will say that I think even in the five years, I've known you. I have seen you inhabit that a lot more. Like this probably wouldn't be a conversation we would have had five or 10 years ago. 


    Whereas now, like I can see you owning it. Like I'm an artist. And by the way, I love that. 


    Megan: It's a very beautiful process that I could not have reached without much anguish. So like a quick side note. I am very thankful that I did not become a professional artist off the get go. Like at a 22 year old, Megan would not have thrived or had thick enough skin to do that. 


    Now that I'm a very much older and wiser version of myself it's like appropriate. 


    Friend: Right. And you have stories to tell through your art and you have - 


    Megan: And I've had to fight very hard for it, you know? 


    Friend: Awesome. That's so interesting. Oh, I could stay there all day, but I think I need to keep asking you a few more questions here. 


    Megan: Yes. 


    Friend: Okay. Next level question. What are some of the generalizations or labels that you hear in your space? 


    Megan: We have to put like trigger warning on this episode. I'm so annoyed by the word "artist" being used as a, as a stereotype generalization or just a big diss. 


    You know, for example, I have a master's degree in Spanish literature, but when I introduce myself to people as an artist, the reaction is. Not what I would want. Right. It's like, Oh, there's an automatic assumption that I might not be a smart, organized or intellectual person. 


    Friend: Really? 


    Megan: I personally have had to work through that. 


    Friend: But are these people that don't know how well educated you are, do you think? Okay, so they're just hearing this one thing like today, this is what I'm doing and therefore I have no education or I'm not organized. 


    Megan: There's just this strange, there's a stereotype. You know, it goes with a lot of women in many businesses, but I would say as artist and woman. It's a tricky, it's a tricky introduction to make a lot of times though, when I work with non-artists like as clients, or curators or whatever, I'm complimented by them for my people skills or my ability to just generally function as an adult, which I find very funny because 


    Friend: - the bar is so low? 


    Megan: Right? So I'm always pleasantly surprising people, which is kind of funny. So I've learned to sort of navigate those waters and say like, I'm going to play this system to my advantage. Same with like being a blonde woman, you know, like I'm like, oh, you think I'm dumb? So I'm just using the fact that I'm like a real, you know, actual human. So I really started with the negative there. I just like quickly because of the word stereotype, I got like all fired up, but I just want you to know that like, like 10 years of literally like rage but that's like 10% of people, 90% of people that I've interacted with are awesome and really intrigued by creative people. 


    And when I say creative people, I don't mean that as a derogatory term. Right. So the spectrum is really full of like a lovely variety of people who are really genuinely interested in myself as an artist or artists in general. 


    Friend: That is a very interesting thing to deal with where expectations are low and you can easily clear them. I guess. It's nice on the one hand to be like, people are surprised by you, but on the other hand, don't you want to have more expected of you at this point? 


    Megan: Personally, what I do is I just. Raise the bar for myself, I'm really good at competing with myself. I'd rather actually compete with myself. 


    Friend: Yeah. Good. So then the generalizations, it seems to be a little neutral, like you're aware of them, you don't necessarily agree. Would that be fair? 


    Megan: I literally love proving people wrong or just like, just like pleasantly surprising people, even, you know, so I use the generalizations to my advantage. Without letting them hurt my feelings, whereas formerly they did. So I just like to surprise people. I show them that artists are really good at everything. And like most adults, we can function and run businesses. 


    Friend: I like doing that too surprising people like come in stealth mode and then be like, oh, by the way, I'm wicked smart. 


    Megan: It's kind of like how you and I both know Spanish, but like kind of our undercover about it. 


    You know, it's a nice skill. It's nice to be like, wait, actually watch your back. Cause I know a lot of things 


    Friend: (entiendo) 


    Megan: and now we're switching over to our content for the Spanish podcast. 


    Friend: Okay, cool. Penultimate question. 


    Megan: Yes. 


    Friend: What are some of the most uplifting? And some of the most degrading words that have been spoken to you or over you in relation to your art or your as an artist? 


    Megan: Okay, I'm going to start with degrading and then end on a positive note because that's nice. You know, there's a lot of there's some pent up rage. I mean the degrading comments are mostly like, that artists are disorganized, that I personally am disorganized that my head's in the clouds, that artists are messy people. 


    And then my favorite story when I was pregnant with my second child, a man who was an artist. And I say "Artist" with the capital A lot, which is like my own terminology for people who are like self-important to me at an opening for my art, my show, and told me that by having another child, I was ruining my career as an artist. 


    I was pregnant. Like it was too late, you know, 


    Friend: what do you want me to do about this? 


    Megan: But I was like, bro, like you're old. You're a man. 


    Friend: And what do you know about this? 


    You have nothing to do with this? 


    Megan: And I'm at my own art show. 


    Friend: And how do you like the art, sir? 


    Megan: Like buy it or bu-bye, get out? Yeah, I just was like, I literally just was like mouth ajar, like, okay. 


    Thank you. That sort of there's that. 


    Friend: Okay. Yeah. What did you do by the way? What did you say to him? 


    Megan: I think I just like went - uhhh I just couldn't, there were no words. That's a whole topic. We could do a whole episode on like horrible comebacks. I don't have the ability in the moment. Swing back with a punch. 


    Friend: Oh, I'm good at that. You should give me like a list of these. I have one for you for head in the clouds. I already came up with it just now and be like, well, I need to spend some time there since I'm painting them all the time. 


    Megan: Oh my God. 


    Friend: Right. 


    Megan: All I do is like drive away from things and I just play it out full anxiety mode in my head. And I'm like, you should have said that.. 


    Friend: But you should be like, oh, did you, is that a joke? Like you realize you enjoy the clouds. Like you actually paint clouds. And you were the one that taught me about the structure of clouds. 


    Like you give me scientific reasons for why we paint clouds this way, because this is how they're formed. Like, hello, she's been studying it. She's not just up there with her brain off. 


    Megan: Episode 10. Clouds. I'm not kidding. I love clouds so much. And I geeked out when I learned about them in science class as a child. 


    Okay. Onto clouds, we're going to go to a uplifting. 


    Friend: Uplifting. Let's do it. There have to have been some good things. 


    Megan: So everything is good. Like everything's so good. Once you start focusing on the positive too. I just sort of don't think about the negative as much anymore. And I've been putting myself out there a lot more recently and people are really connecting with my art, especially my abstract art, which to me has been the ultimate confidence booster because I'm as an artist trying to explain something to people without words. 


    Or as an abstract artist without imagery, which sounds impossible. Right. And the fact that people can connect with my work and find it soothing or inspirational or meditative or relaxing, like that is my own personal mic drop. Right. Because it's a really beautiful experience to just talk to someone about what they think when they're open and they're just asking nice questions and want to know about the art. It's just really lovely. 


    Friend: That's really nice positive reinforcement for other people to be able to articulate what they see or what it makes them feel. Not just for you. 


    Megan: I know that's another generalization that's out there though. It's like the viewer doesn't have to understand the art. And I think sometimes we don't give the viewer enough credit for like, just try. 


    Friend: Yeah. 


    Megan: Like it makes you feel stupid to be like, is this about whatever? And then all of a sudden the artists is like offended and you're like, oh, I'm really sorry. 


    Friend: Well, I think that is a certain gatekeeping actions of artists being like, you, you don't get it. And really like, come on art is for all. Like don't, let's not kid ourselves. Yeah. Do you have. Any reaction to like, do you ever go in your head? Like, no, that's not what it's about or do you just let it flow? 


    And like, whatever somebody says and observes about it is fine with you. Cause at least they're identifying with it? 


    Megan: With my abstracts. I really like people just like winging it and telling me what they like about it. Most often they're complimenting it in some way, shape or form also. I feel like once I've started having shows, I attract nice people because you create a vibe. 


    Right. But it just takes time. This has taken like 10 years now, right. Of like vibe formation. So. Maybe the good people are finding me. And then the wacky ones, you just kind of know they're a little wacky and you let them talk and 


    Friend: yeah. Just keep painting. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: All right. Last question for you for today. And this is a little bit related to what we were just talking about: what do you think happens when non-artists, like me are, trying to engage with you or understand a work and don't know what to say or they maybe don't understand the art. How do you both deal with that discomfort and the unfamiliar? 


    Like are you trying to give them words or. Let it be or is it not uncomfortable? 


    Megan: Yeah. I think first of all, there's people that just don't even go look at art. Right. So I think that it's important to remember that there is a whole segment of the population who's just terrified. For whatever reason to look dumb. And then there's the people who are willing to go see art that they don't know anything about. 


    Right. So right off the bat, like just be, be positive about the fact that you're willing to feel out of place or like you don't understand something. Right. And so I personally think it's amazing to go see art. You don't know anything about, it's like it's the most pure, innocent way to experience something as adults where we're sort of a presuming that we have all the answers. 


    Recently I had a show and a woman just sat on a bench and stare at one of my paintings for a while, and then left whoa really powerful experience for me. And for me not to talk like that was hard, you know. 


    Friend: It's not like you're going to pull up a chair beside her and be like, so what do you think? 


    Like she's in her zone and let her be. 


    Megan: Yeah. Yeah. So it was like an interesting way to sort of let me like observe it, but not need to be part of her her moment, but anyways, so yes. Go see art that you don't know anything about. I think that's huge after you see the work, read everything you can about the artist and their work, and then piece together, your own opinion, your own reaction. 


    I think the problem with us as adults, it's our human nature to kind of.. I need an immediate reaction, right? With like technology and the world right now, that's the expectation is like something has happened. I react immediately. I know, I know everything about it. I have opinions about it. I know where to stand ethically on this issue. 


    You know, it's like so immediate, but I think art is a gift and that it allows us to kind of form a slow opinion. It's asking us to slowly put together what we think about something. So, you know, it's okay to slow down. 


    Friend: And not know. 


    Megan: Yeah. 


    Friend: Just like sit with it. 


    Megan: It's like this actual sign of a true intellect to someone who can just wait. 


    Friend: Who can be uncomfortable, not knowing and not reacting. It's been an interesting social experiment for me to have this art that, you know, this piece that you did for me, and it's massive, and it was kind of an ordeal to get it home and framed. And so it involved a few people cause I didn't have a vehicle that could, you know, anyways, It was like, it took a village. 


    So then, so then people have been like, well, let me see this thing. Right. So they're kind of like aware of what we're doing here. So it's been interesting to watch them come into the room and take a look at it. And I think a lot of my people don't know what to say to me. You know, and similarly with the zoom, you know, I spend most of my life in zoom meetings and a few people who work very closely with me have asked one or two people have been like, "Ooh, you know, new art in the backdrop" and so on. But, but I think there's there's a real hesitancy there and that's just a very small anecdote, but I just wondered from your perspective, if you get that often when you're showing your art. 


    Megan: I just think it's like, there's a lack of vocabulary about it, right? Like there's just a lack of experience in talking. I mean, not to be like the dorkiest, but that's the segue into finance too. That's why these two are so intimately involved because we don't have the right tools. I want to admit what we do and don't know. 


    Friend: And so we're hoping we can just get the space, right. Just be honest about what you don't know, what you're trying to learn. 


    Megan: Yes. So we're going to design some graphics for us visual learners. 


    Friend: Yeah. So we created a couple of graphics that we think are pretty simple and invite, our guests and our listeners to develop a common language around art and money so that we're more comfortable and more confident talking about it. 


    One is a simple scale to reference when we're thinking about the comfort level in talking about our own finances. We're going to talk about the scale in the next episode. But the other one which I wanted to talk about today is a grid. As I said, I kind of think in tables not in paint colors, but it's a, it's a grid with an X and Y axis. 


    So, you know, horizontal and vertical line that intersect in the middle and we've got four quadrants. And we call this one, the money, mind grid. So your money mind, where are you on, you know, the, the extremes of this thing. So we have this, it gives us sort of a money profile of savers and splurgers. 


    And then on the horizontal extremes, we have creative minds or the. Profile of creative people. And then on the other side, we have this sort of analytical logical. And so we thought it'd be interesting to see over time. How many of our guests from all of these. Sectors and industries map themselves out on the grid. 


    And if any of us feel the need to try to move ourselves into a new place in the grid. So I know that's a little, probably hard to visualize, but we'll share those in the show notes as well. And you can find them on the website. 


    Megan: I think you explained it very well. I like this graph a lot and I have a fear of graphs. So it really helped me though, because I would need to visually think through how I understand things. So this helped me sort of categorize how I think about money. It was really interesting for me. Where are you on the grid? 


    Friend: I placed myself in the upper left quadrant and that is towards the extreme of being a saver and towards the extreme of being an analytical mind. 


    Megan: I don't know why I'm so surprised. 


    Friend: You could have placed me. 


    Megan: And where shall the listeners place me!? And I'm a creative splurger. 


    Okay. So I put myself there, but then I'm going to take you through my mind. I'm a financial planners, worst nightmare. Right. But then I realized I don't really splurge. 


    I splurge in a micro. Like teeny splurge. 


    Friend: Define "Micro:. Is micro, like $2 or like 20? 


    Megan: Like it's a little, it's like budget-friendly splurging. I'm not an actual, splurger like, okay. So like I'll use my husband's hotel points to treat myself to a weekend in New York. Right. 


    Friend: Okay. Oh, so you're a maximizer. 


    Megan: I'm a maximizer of my own situation, which I don't know if that means I'm a splurger, but I am really good at turning lemons into lemonade. I'll take myself out for a cup of coffee and buy myself a new book, but it's like a paperback. 


    I don't buy a hard hardback, but honestly, I think I'm not a splurger. I think I'm just like a cheap date. And so I'm just really easy to please and delight. I think like I also love saving money. And I didn't think about that until I had to categorize myself. I like seeing money in my bank account. 


    I love paying off debt. I love finding affordable deals and alternatives to paying full price for things. So like, I think I'm an experiential splurge. But we're going to have to get into that deeper. 


    Friend: Yeah. We'll have to go there a little bit more. Maybe we need some more dimensions. Maybe it needs to be 3d graph, but it sounds like you're not splurging in the sense of dollar figures. 


    Like you're spending thousands and thousands, but you're spending in a way that feels like a reward. 


    Megan: Yes. 


    Friend: So you're spending to reward yourself, not that it's high dollars, but it feels like a splurge because it's something special. Oh, that's cool. That's all right. That's not a financial planner's worst nightmare. 


    Megan: No. So then, like I put myself there and then I realized I, I was kind of incorrect, which is good again, we're trying to prove ourselves wrong. Okay. So where can our listeners find the graphics that we're talking about? If they want the visual? 


    Friend: Yeah , good question. They're going to be linked in the show notes for this episode, episode two, or they can go to art by megan.com forward slash podcast. 


    And look for The Art$ Free Resources. 


    Megan: Yes, go check it out. 


    Friend: Yeah. Okay. Well thank you Megan, for indulging us. I don't know if those were too basic or super basic, but I think it helped us get to the core foundation for future discussions so that we can go back to, you know, the artists, the gatekeepers, that kind of thing. And some of the labels that maybe we'll try to be conscious of and stay away from. 


    Otherwise I think I'm the kid in the back of the class with their hand up being like "What's BEDMAS?" 


    Megan: she's like putting math jokes into this podcast. Okay. I used to skip math class, like not actually skip class, cause I was too good of a person and nervous, but I would, you know, go to the bathroom or whatever and go to the art room and then they would find me. They're like on the PA like a hundred back. It's really bad. 


    Friend: And I would be like, do I have to go to art? 


    Megan: It's just such an interesting, time travel to be like, wow, you really should have pursued that harder ding-dong. Okay. Well, speaking of math and skipping, and maybe, you know, being at the back of the class, we're going to have a little homework. Okay. Let me tell you - my older child's school went virtual again and I've lost my beep. So I purchased things off of the internet to fill a void. That was my homework assignment. 


    I'm not kidding. Like I have nothing to say. I didn't do my homework. 


    Friend: Wait is that emotional spending? 


    Megan: Oh my God, episode 12. 


    Friend: All right. That's cool. 


    Megan: I mean, what about you? Or you were doing something interesting reading. How'd that go? 


    Friend: I also had a little trouble with homework in that I finished the book, but it wasn't that interesting. Like it couldn't really pull out something I wanted to share with this audience. So, sorry. 


    Megan: No, it's okay. Wauh homework. It's okay. All right. I'm going to assign you and our listeners, some homework relating to our topic for today. How's that sound? 


    Friend: Oh, that sounds good. 


    Megan: Okay. This week, you're going to try and notice how many times you compliment someone. 


    Friend: Just notice? 


    Megan: Yeah, just notice it. 


    Friend: Like, I don't have to load a spreadsheet report my spreadsheet calculator. I mean, keep doing okay. Just notice. 


    So how many times I compliment someone about anything or about their art? 


    Megan: I mean, let's go with anything. 


    Friend: All right. Just compliments. And I'm going to like go around complimenting everyone so that my number looks really high. 


    Megan: She wants like really metrics bonus points. 


    Friend: Yep. All right. I can do that. 


    Megan: Okay. So we're just bringing some awareness and we're not going to talk about spreadsheets until next time. 


    Friend: Well, that brings us to the end of our second episode. We hope you enjoyed part one of Labels and Language. Megan. Thanks again for educating me and our listeners. 


    Megan: Join us again next week for discussion on Part Two of Labels and Language. 


    Friend: Yes. I'm going to let Megan grill me on what we mean when we say finance or when we call someone a banker. 


    Megan: Until then this is Megan of Art by Megan. 


    Friend: And her friend, your patron of the arts. 


    Megan: Wishing you more art. 


    Friend: And maybe a better understanding of your money. 


    Megan: If you enjoy The Art$, please like, follow, rate, or review us wherever you get your podcasts. 


    This is the most important way you can support us as a new show. 


    Friend: The Art$ is a production by the Art by Megan studio. This podcast was created, produced, recorded, and researched by Megan and her friend, and edited by Hanna Nakano. The views in this recording are the personal views of the co-hosts and their guests. Their commentary is provided for general informational purposes only and does not constitute financial investment tax or legal advice, nor does it constitute an offer or solicitation to buy or sell any art or financial products. In other words, we're doing this for fun and we hope you enjoy it, but you should still call your account. And your mother.

Third and Fourth
Episode 001 - The Art$ Opening Day

When artist Megan Elizabeth asks her Wall Street banker friend, "So, what do you do all day!?" it opens up a deeper level of dialogue and understanding in their friendship, and sparks a new idea for how they can work together to bridge the gap between their respective worlds.

Listen, follow and review us on your go-to podcast directory: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | Google Podcasts

Show Notes

  • Episode 001 - The Art$ Opening Day

    ===

    [00:00:00] Friend: All right. Episode one, The Art$ Opening Day. [clears throat] Great start.

    [00:00:04] Megan: Here we go.

    [00:00:06] Friend: Okay. You ready?

    [00:00:12] Welcome to The Arts, a brand new podcast about art and money.

    [00:00:15] I've spent my career managing at some of the world's largest financial institutions. So I can't tell you my name, but trust me, talking about money is my jam.

    [00:00:25] Megan: And I'm Megan.

    [00:00:26] I'm an artist and a teacher. And now co-host of this amazing podcast.

    [00:00:31] We're having this conversation because we came to a realization: we have no idea how the other person spends her workday.

    [00:00:38] Friend: Or her money. So let's chat about it.

    [00:00:40] Where should we start today?

    [00:00:41] Megan: Well, I think we should tell people what this is.

    [00:00:45] Friend: And maybe why we're having this conversation.

    [00:00:47] Megan: And maybe where we came up with the idea.

    [00:00:49] Friend: Yes.

    [00:00:50] Megan: Our origin story.

    [00:00:51] Friend: Do you want to go ahead and tell your version?

    [00:00:54] Megan: Yes. So we're always in a conversation since we become friends. So I feel, I feel like right now we're sitting and thinking and we're trying to turn all these cool ideas that we've always had into something.

    [00:01:08] We want to bring people into our worlds. We want to bring women into the world of finance and the arts, but they feel like such opposite sides of the financial fence, if you will.

    [00:01:19] Friend: That's interesting. What happened from my perspective was that you were yourself (and I love this part of Megan's personality). You just are like a straight [00:01:30] up unfiltered question kind of girl. That's my kind of girl. I like that.

    [00:01:34] And most people don't come out so boldly with their questions, but you have a way of doing it without being offensive and being courageous. And so you just went for it. We were out for dinner and you looked at me and said, “Well, what do you do all day?”

    [00:01:48] Megan: Which now looking back, it could be taken differently.

    [00:01:53] But I knew like that when you're among friends, it's kind of an interesting question because I think that we don't know really actually what our friends do. And behind that shroud of mystery is like a lot of information that women need to share.

    [00:02:09] Friend: Yeah. And have the opportunity to talk about even if it's complex.

    [00:02:12] I think sometimes I don't offer it or I don't bring it to the table because I think it'll be boring or it will be complex and maybe not dinner conversation.

    [00:02:22] I walked away and realized it would be great to have the opportunity to talk about it and to also understand a little bit more about your world, right? Because it also then opened up the ability for me to say, well, what do your days look like -

    [00:02:36] Megan: Right

    [00:02:36] Friend: I'm sure there are a lot of us out there that would like to know, but maybe don't know how to ask,

    [00:02:41] and you know, would like to have more access into the world of the other.

    [00:02:46] Megan: Yeah. I feel like sometimes you meet someone, you maybe just remember their name and their occupation. And there's just so much more to people than that. And I think that's probably where a lot of my [00:03:00] questions come from.

    [00:03:00] Where it's like, yeah, that might be what you do for the title. But what, what does that actually look like? Tell me about your world. So I think that's something that we're digging into here a little bit. And I mean, I'm just a very curious person. So it's like, how do you ask someone a question that might seem prying or almost like childlike in it's curiosity. Where it's like, but really what do you do all day? Because I want to put myself in someone else's shoes and I want to see what does an investment banker do all day? What does an art curator do all day? Because I glamorized these jobs, I admire people who do them.

    [00:03:34] So I want to feel in their world,

    [00:03:38] Friend: Yeah. There's a lot of learning there. With that pure curiosity to come at it and say what does that look like? Like how do you, how do you get through the day when it's hard. You know, and I'm also curious, but I I'm curious in a way where the thing, sometimes it seems inappropriate, but to me, it's not a nosiness. It's more like just getting the math to work. I'm, I'm curious about how things are priced and how people earn and what they do with their earnings.

    [00:04:07] Like if you know, you have a pie of earnings, how do you divide it up?

    [00:04:11] Megan: Right.

    [00:04:12] Friend: That's not something that is, or so far, I've had a great amount of success asking people, you know, a lot of people are uncomfortable talking about it because it's so personal.

    [00:04:23] Megan: I think it's time though. The whole point of this is to end the stigma of women talking about business from a [00:04:30] financial perspective, because finances are inherent in running a business. You have to know it and you have to accept it. And then the sooner you can get over that, the sooner you will be more successful. So it's like, this is just us learning what we've learned so far, and then hoping to learn more as we talk to more people.

    [00:04:46] Friend: Yeah. And just rip the bandage off.

    [00:04:49] Megan: Exactly.

    [00:04:50] Friend: You know, let's just do it. We wanted to start a conversation to assist women in different industries so that we can better understand each other's worlds.

    [00:04:58] Megan: We think that talking about art and finance is a conversation we should all be having. We couldn't find anything out there that tackles the intersection or the struggle between finance and art.

    [00:05:09] Friend: We don't necessarily know how to engage with our friends in this way to get that understanding of what their work is like and, and where we might support them or learn from them. So we'll, we'll find a way through this conversation.

    [00:05:21] Megan: I love that. We also want to encourage women who are dreaming of doing something more creative.

    [00:05:27] And don't really know where to start with it. It can be for a profession or hobby. It doesn't really have to be monetized. So the money is going to be an interesting thing that sort of weaves in and out here. But we want to encourage female artists of any kind. I know that men are talking about this.

    [00:05:42] So I think women need to start talking about this, which is our mission. But we want women to integrate the arts and finance. So that's our mission statement.

    [00:05:53] Friend: Yeah. Also adult conversations.

    [00:05:55] Megan: I mean...

    [00:05:56] Friend: That's always good.

    [00:05:56] Megan: Please, please. So like my SOS during [00:06:00] the entire podcast is me saying like help, I'm surrounded by my children and have been for two years, like pandemic parenting slash making art. Whoa.

    [00:06:08] Also my friend here needs non-banking conversation.

    [00:06:12] Friend: Yes. Yes.

    [00:06:13] Megan: She has a lot of adult conversation.

    [00:06:15] Friend: I could use some more art in my life.

    [00:06:19] Megan: Yes. And everyone needs connection, especially right now, when connection feels sort of intermittent and strange, you know, we're not hanging out in big groups, like having deep conversations right now. So this kind of thing might help to scratch that itch.

    [00:06:36] Friend: Yes. And for me personally, it will also be the most exciting zoom conversation I have all week. We record this over zoom and most of you know, I spend most of my day on zoom and this is way more fun than any conversation -

    [00:06:51] Megan: - mentioning zoom is very triggering for me because on my end of the world, I spend a lot of my time on zoom teaching children's art classes.

    [00:07:00] And let me just tell you that children have already mastered zoom. And when I say children, I mean four year olds. Like online, our four-year-olds are completely, completely proficient. There'll be like, “Excuse me. Can we go into a meeting room? I've some questions, I'd now like to ask,” and they'll be like, “Could you make me host for a minute? I'd like to share something.” Four , five five-year-olds.

    [00:07:21] Friend: That's wild. I had no idea.

    [00:07:24] Megan: Okay. They adults are behind.

    [00:07:26] Friend: That's yeah, totally. I had no concept that you could teach. [00:07:30] Kids at that age, art by zoom. So...

    [00:07:32] Megan: So everyone thinks ..

    [00:07:34] Friend: You've already blown my mind.

    [00:07:35] Megan: ..it's been a disaster or, well, it's just, it's one of those things they've had to adapt.

    [00:07:38] So here we all are adapting.

    [00:07:40] Friend: Good for us.

    [00:07:42] Megan: Yeah. And then we're just hoping that this isn't a podcast that's self-help in so far as like there are many self-help podcasts out there for women. Podcasts where you can find information on finance. This, this is not an informational podcast. This is more about two friends examining their different opinions and experiences, and then inviting in people for a conversation about it.

    [00:08:07] All right. So should we tell our listeners what they're going to expect from our show since she's the queen of the organization here, people, you'll notice as you will see who is the analytical mind and who is the creative mind.

    [00:08:22] And well let's just say the stigma holds. Yeah. As I brainstorm and lose track of time, Friend here will keep me in check.

    [00:08:31] And where we are in the show notes.

    [00:08:33] Exactly.

    [00:08:34] Friend: Well, you know, let's just say for the first few episodes, maybe I'll try to bring the structure. And you can try to break it. That would be fun.

    [00:08:42] Megan: That's the goal.

    [00:08:43] Friend: Yeah, but to answer your actual question about what our listeners can expect. We will have some regular segments here on the show. We want to cover what we're calling, “The Scene,” which is the awesome things that are happening in the world of art and finance. [00:09:00] So we'll both share on a regular basis what we're reading about, what we're seeing, who we're talking to, and hopefully give the listeners some interesting things that they can go and check out on their own as well.

    [00:09:13] Then we'll do interviews. And we'll have some guests. Sometimes it will be me interviewing you or you interviewing me or we'll have a guest come in from either art or finance and talk to us about their area of expertise. And then because we want to challenge our brains and give us all

    [00:09:32] the opportunity to learn new things and stretch. We're going to have homework assignments. So little things that we can do to get us thinking or trying or experimenting in a new area. And, stretching outside of our comfort zones.

    [00:09:47] So that's the plan.

    [00:09:49] Bear with us, bear with us and let us know if we're driving you crazy, but we will get there.

    [00:09:55] Megan: But also don't like, don't email us. We don't. I mean, no one, no one needs to email me and be like, “Megan, we think your voice is a little deep.”

    [00:10:04] Friend: Well that you can't do anything about.

    [00:10:06] Megan: Like, email us , if it's constructive.

    [00:10:08] Friend: Yes. Constructive emails.

    [00:10:09] Megan: Also I have a lot of ideas and I can't keep them in my mouth.

    [00:10:14] Friend: That's that's part of what makes you amazing. So...

    [00:10:19] Megan: All right. Are you ready, Friend? Could you describe the show to me in five words or less?

    [00:10:25] Friend: Okay. If I were to describe a show that you and I created in five [00:10:30] words or less, I would describe it as, the harmony of constructive chaos. Because we have a lot of things in common and we can walk and step on literally because our stride length is the same.

    [00:10:46] Megan: We're very tall.

    [00:10:48] Friend: Yes, but also we're in these two completely different orbits and we will meet and merge our narrow windows of opportunity and styles, and it will be magic, but it might be a little bit of chaos to get there.

    [00:11:01] What about you? Could you describe The Art$ in two or three words?

    [00:11:06] Megan: Art meets finance.

    [00:11:09] Friend: Oh, succinct.

    [00:11:12] Megan: Thank you.

    [00:11:12] Friend: I like that.

    [00:11:13] Well all right. I think we're at the point in the show where the inevitable happens and I will start with you, Megan, would you like to introduce you?

    [00:11:22] Megan: Yes. So I am an artist. I've been a professional painter for about seven years. I work in abstract acrylic paints.

    [00:11:32] And I have now officially had a solo show, a show internationally, like big things are happening in the most recent year and two years of my career. In addition to that, I love traveling. So the traveling is very interwoven with the painting. I'm easily inspired, but I need a lot of input to have

    [00:11:53] the paintings flow out of me. So it's a relationship that is dependent upon one another, the traveling has to happen for the [00:12:00] output of paintings to occur. And in addition to that, I'm a mom of two little people. So I am often doing two things at once. Almost always, actually I'm usually like applying a band-aid while cooking dinner.

    [00:12:13] And painting. So imagine like some sort of Harlem Globetrotter, but like as a, as a mom, I mean, I cannot actually spin a basketball on my finger, but if I could, I would, I would reach my full potential, but I am, I'm really busy is the moral of the story.

    [00:12:32] Friend: That sounds, that sounds messy, actually. Painting, while making -

    [00:12:35] Megan: It's very messy.

    [00:12:36] Friend: Do your pancakes sometimes come out with paint on them?

    [00:12:38] Megan: Listen to me when I tell you that I'm the worst cook, because cooking is one of those things you can't really multitask with. And so as a person who's easily distracted, I'm just not, it's not for me.

    [00:12:51] Friend: Well, maybe you could, you could teach the little ones.

    [00:12:54] Megan: Oh, for sure. I'm really into outsourcing. That's a new thing. So outsourcing when you have children is also a messy process, but it can eventually reach its full potential.

    [00:13:05] Friend: Good, good, good, good. That, that was great. And I have a lot of questions that I will ask you about later from, from your little intro there, but I think you forgot the part about your ability to do a thousand things a day.

    [00:13:19] How many hours are in your day? Like in a typical day?

    [00:13:22] Megan: I don't understand. I don't understand. I mean, I'm quite tired. Let's not glamorize it. I have this problem [00:13:30] where I want to do everything. So in order to do that, I move at a very rapid pace, highly caffeinated.

    [00:13:39] And I don't care that I'm very tired at the end of the day, but to some people, I, I do realize that as extremely overwhelming, I'm a, perhaps an overwhelming person. I just want everything, right. Like I want to do a good job of, of being a mom. I want to read a lot of books. I want to travel the world. I want to paint.

    [00:13:59] I want to, I want to, I want to, so I most often get it done. I often fall asleep mid-conversation at around 9:30 PM on the couch, but I feel like we only get one shot at life. So I'm like really plunging for it.

    [00:14:14] Friend: Yeah, I can see that. I can see that. I just wonder when I, when I listened to you and everything that you seem to get done in a day or a week or a month, I often wonder is she sleeping at all?

    [00:14:26] Megan: Oh, I sleep.

    [00:14:27] Friend: Okay. Well that might be part of your, part of your power then is that you're well rested.

    [00:14:32] Megan: I probably should go at a slower speed. Not, we're not going to lie here. There's intricate parts of my daily schedule that we'll get into later where I'm like. I have to get things done during certain windows of time, which kind of allude to the fact that I'm, or like maybe would be like a smoke and mirrors version of me getting a lot done, but I just have to work in small batches in order to even stay afloat.

    [00:14:55] So it's just I also think it's a phase. Like my kids are entering [00:15:00] different worlds eventually, and then I'll have more time to maybe slow down.

    [00:15:04] Friend: Yeah.

    [00:15:04] Megan: Which would be a bonus.

    [00:15:05] Friend: Yeah, but at the moment, it's it's mom, mum, wife, painter, traveler, whirlwind.

    [00:15:13] Megan: Whirlwind, like Poltergeist. Okay. It's your turn.

    [00:15:16] But first we have to start talking about your unusual name on this podcast, which is, “Friend.” And maybe just tell us as much as you can about your mysterious self.

    [00:15:25] Friend: Sure. All right. Well, I don't mean to be mysterious, but I, I do work in an industry where we're careful around the use of social media and being very public about what we do. I have spent my entire career working in finance at a couple of different global banks. I've worked in many countries and done many different roles. What comes with is a lot of financial analysis, I mean, we love our spreadsheets. And so I spent a lot of days in money assessment, you know, where is the money? Where is it going? Is this worth us lending money against? That involves a lot of zoom meetings. And managing risk on behalf of a large public company. Much of what we do is confidential. And because we are high earners , there's just a lot of reasons why many of my peers would choose to not have a public profile. So I don't really use anything [00:16:30] .Like you won't find me. So, what we decided to do for the podcast is to call me, “Friend.”

    [00:16:37] Megan: It's accurate.

    [00:16:38] Friend: It's accurate. Exactly. So that will be what it will be and we'll see how it goes.

    [00:16:43] And while I may be nameless for the purposes of this show. I can say that my actual bio includes the following real details. I'm happily married. Child-free. I'm a runner and a Yogi. Under normal circumstances (thank you, COVID) I would be a constant traveler. Perpetual ex-pat. And, as the banker in the room, you know, I'm definitely more comfortable representing the non-art topics. Prefer to talk about money. I don't really know what I'm doing on the art side. And, you know, given my career choice, I don't feel like I have much time and energy left for the arts. But we're working on it!

    [00:17:22] Megan: This sounds just as exhausting as my day in case you were wondering, like, this sounds so hard, you're thinking and doing spreadsheets all day, whereas I'm just like flitting around from task to task. So don't sell yourself short on the exhaustion level.

    [00:17:36] Friend: It's surprising how exhausting it is.

    [00:17:38] And sometimes I look back and I think like, why am I so tired? But when we were preparing for this, I, I sat down and of course did a little math on, on this. I just split split a day. So a typical day is 10 or 11 hours, sometimes 12. So that doesn't leave a lot .. Sleep is very important to me.

    [00:17:55] I try my best to get eight hours. So it doesn't leave a lot of excess time. Within that 10 [00:18:00] or 12 hour a day, it's, it's probably 10% email management. About 50% right now is meetings. So meeting with my team, you know, people management meeting with clients often those are unpleasant meetings, a lot of bad news or difficult. You know, “We can't do this or this is the scenario.”

    [00:18:18] It just doesn't, it's not like -

    [00:18:20] Megan: Inspirational.

    [00:18:20] Friend: It's a little bit like going -yeah, exactly. We're not like doing motivational speeches here. It is a little bit like going to the dentist. And that's like half my day. I spend half my day at the dentist. The intellectual dentists.

    [00:18:35] Megan: That's hard.

    [00:18:36] Friend: It's hard. And then about 10% of the day is usually somebody yelling or being aggressive or arrogant. Probably an attorney, maybe an investment banker. The getting yelled at is a real thing and it doesn't, it's not because I'm like new or incompetent it's because that's seems to be the way that people who are highly educated and, highly paid get things done.

    [00:19:01] Megan: Seem to operate.

    [00:19:02] Friend: Yeah. Very interesting.

    [00:19:04] And then probably a third of it is either like spreadsheets or, or presentation making presentations so that we can communicate, you know, to, to senior audience.

    [00:19:12] So that's a, with what little is left? Usually my brain is mush by the time I'm done. I try to you know I'm very concerned about getting a workout in try to talk to my family who all don't live near me. So it's all more video chat. And then I do try to, and I'm hoping [00:19:30] maybe, you know, you can help me with the multitasking of this is like, “Can I, can I paint while I'm riding my bike (indoors)?” But like try to squeeze some kind of creative work in: writing or, you know, I like to sew I don't know if cooking counts, but you'll see that there is no time left for things like social media, TV shopping.

    [00:19:52] So I'm probably a little awkward, cause I don't know what's trending and what to wear. Cause I don't, but it's fine.

    [00:19:59] Megan: She's not awkward is ridiculous. Also, you know, what's funny is my husband calls me The Exchange Student and the reason for that is because as a child I was drawing or climbing trees all day.

    [00:20:11] And so I have no concept of you know, like people talk about pop culture, things from our childhood.

    [00:20:16] Friend: Yes.

    [00:20:17] Megan: I don't know. None of them land on me. People will like the Goonies and I'm like, I don't know.

    [00:20:22] Friend: I don't know what that is. We didn't have a TV!. I was just reading.

    [00:20:25] Megan: This is what lends us. Like we lend well to international travel though, because we understand what it feels like to be the literal exchange student where you're like, no, I'm not really down with the pop culture.

    [00:20:37] Friend: Yeah, it wasn't like that where I came from.

    [00:20:40] Megan: Yeah. Like I'm like, I was climbing in a crazy. Throwing rocks and then painting about it. And we're talking about seven year old, Megan, you know, so the trendiness thing is very funny that you mentioned that.

    [00:20:52] Okay. I have some rapid fire questions I'd like to ask you.

    [00:20:55] Friend: Ooh, yikes. Okay.

    [00:20:57] Megan: No you may not like overthink, this. [00:21:00] We'll be as rapid as possible.

    [00:21:02] Friend: Okay.

    [00:21:02] Megan: One of us is more rapid than other you'll notice also, I don't know if the listeners can tell the difference between our voices yet, but there's one of ours that is very refined. And then there's me. Okay.

    [00:21:15] Where would you consider home?

    [00:21:18] Friend: Wherever I am at the moment with my husband. Yes.

    [00:21:21] Megan: So you've lived lots of places.

    [00:21:23] Friend: Yeah. So wherever we are together, that's probably home, even if it's a week or a day.

    [00:21:29] Megan: Yeah. Well, that's the thing about once you move a lot, you've realized like it's not about the stuff at all.

    [00:21:34] Friend: Yeah.

    [00:21:34] Megan: I can't follow up on each one. Okay. Well, what was your worst subject in school?

    [00:21:40] Friend: Finance. Math.

    [00:21:43] Megan: Really?

    [00:21:43] Friend: I'm not even joking. We can have a whole thing about that. Math in high school, I needed a math tutor. And when I was doing my MBA, I had to do the finance one twice.

    [00:21:53] Megan: I'm not kidding that this just made me emotional because my entire life people told me I was bad at math.

    [00:21:58] Friend: Yeah. I was bad at math. It didn't make sense until it made sense until it was practical. So we can talk about that at some point.

    [00:22:04] Megan: This is the whole episode. And let me just spoiler for the future episode, it was just because we were girls. No one was telling boys they were bad at math in the nineties.

    [00:22:14] Okay. If you could meet one creative person alive or past -

    [00:22:19] Friend: Stephen Colbert

    [00:22:20] Megan: but ,really?

    [00:22:21] Friend: Yeah. Because the way his brain works to be so funny, so fast, I would like to understand, I would like to have more of [00:22:30] that.

    [00:22:31] Megan: He's also an interesting, kind of funny from my perspective, because it's like a very intellectual, but quick, quick goofball. Funny, interesting hybrid.

    [00:22:44] Okay. What is your favorite piece of art that you own?

    [00:22:47] Friend: Spoiler alert. I'm sitting in front of..a painting..

    [00:22:50] Megan: This was not mean to be a self-serving questions. As soon as it came out of my mouth, I was like, all right, forget it. Nevermind. Moving on. She has my art.

    [00:23:00] Friend: I'm sitting in front of a commission piece by Megan. It is my zoom backdrop. There is nothing else.

    [00:23:06] Megan: It's really, larger than life. I kind of don't want ask this, but I want to see your answer, Instagram or TikTok?

    [00:23:15] Friend: What is the point of either? I mean, I don't know.

    [00:23:19] Megan: No really elaborate because I love people that hate social media's perspective.

    [00:23:24] Friend: I feel like, I mean, that's a whole other episode. I feel like it just makes everyone feel bad about themselves. And I realized quickly that it does that for me. So I just don't, I will say though, that I think there's a, some, something fun about TikTok that we're doing in an offline way.

    [00:23:39] So my husband and I play really loud music and record ourselves dancing and send it to people. And we've been told that that's what TikTok is about, but we don't care because we just do it directly.

    [00:23:50] Megan: So maybe just doing like analog TikTok.

    [00:23:53] Friend: Yes. Analog. My whole life.is analog.

    [00:23:55] Megan: I feel like there's something very beautiful. And perhaps future [00:24:00] trendy about that way of living though. So maybe you're a trendsetter and you don't realize it.

    [00:24:04] All right. The last question I'm going to ask you is. If you could have a dinner party with four people, they have to be creative in some capacity. Where would you go? And with whom?

    [00:24:17] Friend: I would go to Dubai because it's phenomenal. And I think the middle east is misunderstood in this part of the world. And I would want to be the host of my four - is it me plus four?

    [00:24:32] Megan: Sure.

    [00:24:32] Friend: Okay. So I would like to show four people this, this beautiful place and the four people, creative creative people, I would definitely bring you because you make a dinner party fun and the aforementioned Stephen Colbert. And I think that we should have Kristen, our friend, Kristen there, and then someone else creative. How about Alicia Keys?

    [00:24:58] Megan: Oh my God. I love her. Have you seen Architectural Digest?

    [00:25:03] Friend: Yes, I sent it to you.

    [00:25:05] Megan: Was that from you?

    [00:25:06] Friend: Where did you think it came from?

    [00:25:10] Megan: No, I literally have just been wondering this.

    [00:25:13] Friend: I saw it in an airport. She was on the cover and I was like, “rt plus Alicia keys!?”

    [00:25:19] Megan: She's like a huge patron of the arts.

    [00:25:21] Friend: I know! My copy hasn't arrived yet.

    [00:25:24] Megan: Oh, my gosh. Thank you. I didn't realize it was you. This is such a lovely unscripted moment. [00:25:30] I was like, I wonder who thought to send that to me? Oh, wow. You've really read my mind. Thank you so much.

    [00:25:35] Friend: Yep..

    [00:25:36] Megan: Okay. Well that was all very interesting. And I am dying to go to Dubai.

    [00:25:42] Friend: I know people need to see it. It's phenomenal.

    [00:25:44] Megan: Yeah.

    [00:25:45] Friend: Yeah. Okay. Am I off the hot seat?

    [00:25:48] Megan: Yes.

    [00:25:49] Friend: Okay. Right back at you. I am going to ask you as many as I think we have time for.

    [00:25:56] Favorite season?

    [00:25:57] Megan: All of them, except winter, I like, okay, I'll elaborate. I like spring because it's colorful and I need that. I like summer because I love the beach and I love being outdoors. I feel like it lends itself well to fun activities. I don't love like the super hot weather, but whatever. And then I love fall because again, it's colorful and the sky is extra blue in the fall.

    [00:26:22] And it's a little crisp. My birthday. I also like wearing a light jacket.

    [00:26:30] Friend: And vests?

    [00:26:31] Megan: No I don't wear vests. I, my dream outfit is like a light jacket and shorts and a t-shirt and sandals. Okay. Anyways, but I hate winter because I don't like being cooped up inside and I don't like very cold weather every single day. Like I would like to travel somewhere snowy, but I can't deal with like the relentless grayness. .

    [00:26:53] Friend: Okay. All right. So you've picked, you've picked three. When I tried to ask you for one, [00:27:00] welcome to Megan's world .

    [00:27:02] Megan: That's the answer.

    [00:27:03] Friend: All right. What was your worst subject in school?

    [00:27:06] Megan: Also math, but I'm not certain that that's even true. Because looking back now, I think that's just what they told me. It was my worst subject in school.

    [00:27:15] And I don't know if you can tell from the way I speak, but I was a giant nerd as a child. I mean, I was into all of it. I was like a straight A student, not for lack of effort. Like I was extremely hardworking, but I was really into school. Like the kind of kid that would cry if they had a fever, because I wanted to go to school. I love school. I mean, I loved school so much. I became a teacher, so I could go to 10 years extra school.

    [00:27:41] Friend: Right. So like, as a teacher, you probably didn't have a worst subject. I mean, you probably -

    [00:27:46] Megan: I just don't think, I just don't think that they taught math the way that I needed to learn it.

    [00:27:52] Friend: I think that's true. For a lot of us.

    [00:27:54] And I'm be interested to talk to you another time about going through with your kids as they do math. Are you finding that the way they're teaching it today is, is different. Are you like, oh yeah, this is easy. Are you like, oh my, how do you do this?

    [00:28:08] Megan: My daughter is so smart in math, so I, maybe I wasn't the world's greatest math student because I can see now someone who's really good at it naturally.

    [00:28:16] And they live in my house and they're. Considerably younger than I am.

    [00:28:21] Friend: How is that possible? Alright, sunrise or sunset?

    [00:28:27] Megan: Both.

    [00:28:28] Friend: No, you can only choose [00:28:30] one every day. You get the same either a sunrise or sunset, but the other one would be sleeping for.

    [00:28:35] Megan: Fine. I'd like to sleep through the sunrise and I would love to see the sunset from somewhere panoramic. See the whole thing. So like a beach or some sort of open land.

    [00:28:46] Friend: Okay. So, so she'll be in Dubai watching the sunset.

    [00:28:51] Megan: Oh, I wish.

    [00:28:52] Friend: What is your favorite app on your phone?

    [00:28:55] Megan: You're not going to like this, but mine is Instagram because I, I personally I'm tooting my own horn here. When we do this at our family dinner table. Like if you brag about yourself, you go “toot, toot.” So I really feel like I've cracked the code with Instagram, because for me it does not make me sad or feel any like FOMO because I only follow things. I like to look at. And so therefore I have like curated what I want to actually be looking at instead of people that make me feel sad about myself and I like sharing what I share.

    [00:29:33] And I think I have like a little community with people who kind of enjoy, there's a good banter back and forth, and I'm an ultimate extrovert. So I need, especially in the recent, like two years of isolation, I feel like I need input from other people. So Instagram sort of is that like extrovert tool for me.

    [00:29:51] Friend: Hmm. Interesting. Okay.

    [00:29:55] Megan: We can talk more about it.

    [00:29:56] Friend: We can talk more about it. I could learn some things. You must be ruthless about [00:30:00] eliminating ads and accounts and things that you have that aren't working for you.

    [00:30:04] Megan: Yeah.

    [00:30:05] Friend: That's good. Good cleaning skills.

    [00:30:07] Megan: Ruthless is my middle name.

    [00:30:11] Friend: All right. Let's talk about your dinner party. You get to have four people anywhere for dinner.

    [00:30:15] Megan: They have to be creative adjacent. Okay. Anywhere. So the first problem alright I think I would be in Madrid.

    [00:30:27] Friend: I was hoping you would say that.

    [00:30:28] Megan: It's like, yeah. It's like my favorite city in the whole world. I feel like I would be a, just like somewhere unassuming like everywhere unassuming there is the best kind of place.

    [00:30:38] So it's like some little street cafe. Having dinner and tapas and like wine and just delicious banter. So the four creative people, well, we would go together cause we're going on a girl's weekend. And I think I would invite Frida Kahlo, who I'm sure would be a wild dinner guest. She'd probably be very inappropriate, but I would love to hear her perspective on being a woman artist in the time where she was.

    [00:31:05] Relegated to being someone famous' sidekick. Like I just would love to hear what she had to say about it. Also I would want Georgia O'Keeffe maybe, but I think she'd be too shy. I don't know. She gives me shy vibes, which makes me feel shy.

    [00:31:21] Friend: I could sit beside her. I'm also a little shy. I'm good with shy.

    [00:31:26] Megan: You're good at pulling out the shyness, you're good at like extracting it from [00:31:30] people, which is a true gift because sometimes shy on shy is like the worst.

    [00:31:35] Friend: Like awkward.

    [00:31:36] Megan: Like, ah, okay. So we have us three: you, me, Frida, Georgia. And then ..

    [00:31:44] Friend: That's four.

    [00:31:45] Megan: That is four.. Okay. Then I want, see the finance math.

    [00:31:50] All right. Then I want Helen Frankenthaler, which I don't know if everyone knows who she was, but she's like a female abstract, expressionist, painter. She lived in Manhattan, her whole life. And she was like, I guess you'd call her like a rich girl from the Upper West Side, traditionally, like, a Manhattanite, you know, in every sense of the word, but she was pretty rebellious and interesting. And then I think I would invite is that it ?

    [00:32:17] Friend: That's everyone, that's it that's a full house.

    [00:32:19] Megan: I want to invite more people.

    [00:32:23] Friend: I, I cannot ask Megan binary questions. They will become a nonbinary.

    [00:32:30] Megan: Yeah. Nothing's binary here.

    [00:32:32] Friend: Yes. All right. That was awesome. That was fun. Thank you,

    [00:32:35] Megan: Rapid fire. We did that actually more rapid than some would argue if they know us.

    [00:32:42] Friend: It was good. I hope I hope some of the guests that we have will go through that with us

    [00:32:48] Megan: yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

    [00:32:50] Friend: I'm sure.

    [00:32:50] Megan: I think, I think we'll just be like, you have to pick a couple of these and we'll just, we'll just ask you.

    [00:32:57] Friend: Condition of entry. Okay. So [00:33:00] now that we've made the case that the show and it's co-hosts might be mildly interesting. How can our listeners get in touch? How do we want to be reached? We already said no, no critical emails.

    [00:33:13] Megan: No nasty emails! No, like, no, we're not doing that. So like, that's just not how -

    [00:33:18] Friend: we'll just ignore them.

    [00:33:19] Megan: Yeah, I barely barely can answer the emails that are nice. We don't have time for that.

    [00:33:24] All right. We're going to be launching a new page on our website. So on artbymegan.com/podcast, you will be able to find all of our episodes and show notes. We're going to try and do a good job with our show notes so that you have access to lots of the resources that we both love. And then when we have guests on, we will link to all of their goodness as well.

    [00:33:45] And I think we have a new email address. Very exciting.

    [00:33:48] Friend: Yes, we do. For pleasant emails only. The podcast show, email is podcast at artbymegan.com.

    [00:33:58] Megan: And you guys can email us all of your good, happy thoughts and lovely ideas to podcast at artbyMegan.com.

    [00:34:06] Friend: All right. And what about you? Will you also be sharing anything podcasts related on Instagram?

    [00:34:11] We're not, we're not going to set up a separate Instagram account for this, right?

    [00:34:16] Megan: No, it sounds like too much work. No, there's no time. We also, as we both mentioned, have a lot of balls in the air, which, you know, I don't love that expression, but here we are. We will be sharing highlights and fun things on Instagram. So @artbyMegan is where [00:34:30] I live in the internet.

    [00:34:32] And as you can already tell. I have a lack of ability to filter my enthusiasm. So I'm sure there'll be lots of information there for you to follow.

    [00:34:41] Friend: Yes. And don't look for me there. As, as I said, I either don't exist or occasionally Megan or Kristen will say, Hey, you should probably look at this and then I have to re-install Instagram and remember the login and go and try to -

    [00:34:55] Megan: Literally.

    [00:34:56] Friend: Or what I try sometimes to do is Google Instagram.

    [00:35:01] Megan: Like it's like sending something to your grandma, like clip it out and put it in an envelope and send it.

    [00:35:09] Friend: Snail mail it to me.

    [00:35:10] Megan: Yeah.

    [00:35:11] Friend: But in all likelihood I will be the one watching the inbox. I'm on the email and you can call me Friend.

    [00:35:18] Megan: Megan, or Friend or just Friend times two.

    [00:35:21] Okay. So before we go, let's look at The Scene.

    [00:35:25] Friend: All right. All right. Yes, The Scene. So Megan, on future episodes, what, what I thought we would do is we could start the episode with this topic, but I thought for this first one, we should start with a more formal introduction to the show concept and us as co-hosts and so on. And so we've done that.

    [00:35:43] Megan: Yes. I loved it. It worked very well.

    [00:35:46] Friend: Yes. I think it worked. We're also very humble here at the show. So what's trending in the social arts.

    [00:35:52] This week.

    [00:35:54] Megan: Okay. I mean, there's just so much to talk about, but the first thing is this Architectural [00:36:00] Digest feature on Alicia Keys. Not only is Alicia Keys, one of the coolest people, I think generally speaking out there, she seems very humble. She's a mom, but she doesn't share much about her child, which I feel like is super cool and non trendy. Right? So we're going for these like different ladies. I think she's our age, which is also makes her extra awesome. We're, we're not as cool as her because we're not married to a rapper. So that's, you know,

    [00:36:29] Friend: Well, I am, he's just not a famous rapper.

    [00:36:32] Megan: He might be famous. Maybe that's why my friend here can't talk about herself. Okay? Pit Bull said no.

    [00:36:39] So anyways Alicia Keys has this amazing art collection in her home. And instead of buying art from already super famous artists, she has made it sort of her mission to support many women and many unknown to the big art world artists. And she's purchasing a lot of art by women of color and well, women from all over the world who are not in the, the art with a capital, A art scene. And I just think it's like inspirational and revolutionary. It's really cool. She purchased a painting by a woman who I'm friends with on Instagram, and the woman is the most delightful human who is like an artist who recently has just blown up. I mean, but it's not for lack of effort. This woman is super [00:37:30] hardworking. She's a mom of two. I mean, she is like the person you would want to do well. So I'm just Lauren Pearce, super proud of you.

    [00:37:37] Friend: Very cool. And we can link to that to her... what do we call it on Instagram - profile? Page?

    [00:37:44] Megan: Yeah, this is fun.

    [00:37:47] We'll link it to her MySpace.

    [00:37:50] Friend: I could Google her Instagram, right?

    [00:37:53] Megan: Yeah. We'll have everyone Googling in no time.

    [00:37:57] Friend: Let me Google that for you and

    [00:37:59] Megan: Ok but what are you reading, what are you reading about or seeing?

    [00:38:04] Friend: Okay. So I think that my local library might be on to the fact that we're doing this podcast because I ordered every book that had the word art in the title. I just went, I just went nuts.

    [00:38:17] And also, I was reading an article about talking about money and why does it make us uneasy and so on? And so I've just finished this book by the the person who wrote the article, it's Rachel Sherman, Uneasy Street: The Anxieties of Affluence. And so it was, it's a very interesting book where she interviews the Upper West Side basically of Manhattan and like people with, with real money and talk to them about how they feel about having so much and how they manage it and how they spend it and how they invest it. And yeah. Maybe we talk about that a little bit later, but that was kind of the latest. And then I'm just into a number of other books that I'm [00:39:00] trying to I'm I'm trying to expand my horizons.

    [00:39:04] I don't think I've ever taken an art book out of the library.

    [00:39:08] Megan: So funny. Are you a book monogamist?

    [00:39:11] Friend: Oh, no.

    [00:39:11] Megan: Do you - you're polygamist.

    [00:39:15] Friend: I am. I usually have four or five and different, you know, different, I'll have a, you know, a novel and then I'll have something for work and then I'll have something on this topic and that topic.

    [00:39:27] And then, and I also am very quick to liberate books if they are not serving me, because I just don't have time for that.

    [00:39:35] Megan: No. I agree. I used to think that you had to suffer through to finish it, but you just don't, you just don't. I love a juicy, novel alongside a serious topic. Right? Like I like to pair the two, they pair nicely.

    [00:39:50] Friend: And then do you race to see which one you will finish first?

    [00:39:52] Megan: I know, I know I'll finish the juicy novel first, but I have to, I have to kind of pair them so that I kind of, I need you, you know, I'm kind of. Stuck in this world where I'm kind of a little of everything, right. So I have to kind of dabble.

    [00:40:06] Friend: Yeah. I like the dabbling in the reading. I try to read books that I think I won't like that's, that's another category that I give myself. Like I try to say, okay, that sounds awkward. Or that sounds boring. Or that sounds controversial. Or I know that's not my current position, you know, writing to my current position, just to challenge my brain. So this one I thought would be interesting. I thought I would maybe get a little [00:40:30] worked up about reading some of the uber wealthy in New York and and, and like challenge my own judgment of that group. And it was good. It was a good challenge.

    [00:40:41] Megan: Did you get as worked up as you expected?

    [00:40:44] Friend: Yes.

    [00:40:45] Megan: Oh, Ooh. That I want to read it.

    [00:40:47] Friend: I mean, it's insane. It's insane.

    [00:40:49] Megan: I've always been very intrigued by people who are just born into easy wealth and when I say easy, I mean, like the kind of wealth that I can't fathom. Right. Like I just, I I'm, I don't know if jealous is the right word, but it's mystifying.

    [00:41:02] Friend: It's mystifying. Yes. And I think that it's in order to get her interviewees to talk to her Ms. Sherman I think she, she had a difficult job because she's prying in and then as you pry people close up and then she has to, she's quoting it's full of quotes from the interviews. And I think she did a great job of allowing the quotes to just be, to not to not like reflect on them too much and stay away from putting her own judgment on it. And to just say like, this is what they told me. So, you know, so she's, she's sort of assessing what they're telling her, but not gossiping about it. If that makes sense, like she's taking an academic approach to, “okay, so you'll see that this person justifies spending.” Like some of these people are spending more than a million year. On like household travel consumption stuff. Right. And so she's, so she, she [00:42:00] dives into that in a non gossipy salacious way. It's it was quite a good read.

    [00:42:04] Megan: I really want to read that. Yeah, I'll be going to the library.

    [00:42:11] Friend: I found it and I gotta go, okay. Bye.

    [00:42:14] All right. Let's see what else we have here.

    [00:42:17] Megan: So we need to like, just keep doing our nerdy little research projects for ourselves is basically what we're saying.

    [00:42:24] Friend: Oh yes. The homework. I'm not sure if we if we have any particular homework.

    [00:42:30] Megan: I think we should just both read something shocking or interesting.

    [00:42:34] Friend: Okay. Easy.

    [00:42:37] Megan: Easy, easy.

    [00:42:38] Friend: Easy to come by. I've just started a book that is that is that. So that's easy. We'll just carry on. Let me know how it goes next week. Okay. All right. Well that that brings us to the end of our first episode. We hope you as our listeners got a good sense for the concept for the show and the style of conversation we have planned for you.

    [00:42:59] We hope you enjoyed meeting us your cohosts.

    [00:43:03] Megan: That was super fun. Thank you guys for listening to The Art$ and be sure to come back next week for our discussion on labels and language, as in what do we mean when we say “art” or when we call someone quote creative, how does someone unfamiliar with the arts start to engage with the sort of associate with these labels and this framework that's already been established. Until then, this is Megan of Art by Megan.

    [00:43:29] Friend: And her [00:43:30] friend, your patron of the arts.

    [00:43:31] Megan: Wishing you more art.

    [00:43:32] Friend: And maybe more money.

    [00:43:35] And then we'll do the voice over music.

    [00:43:41] We did it!

    [00:43:42] Megan: We did it!

    [00:43:44] If you enjoy the arts, please like, follow, rate, or review us wherever you get your podcasts. This is the most important way you can support us as a new show.

    [00:43:54] Friend: Not sure how to do that? No problem. We've shared step-by-step instructions for the most common podcast apps on our podcast page at artbymegan.com/podcast.

    [00:44:06] Megan: Can we read this?

    [00:44:07] Friend: I'm going to read it, and then I'm hoping what she'll do is speed it up. Or you can read it if you want...

    [00:44:11] The Art$ is a production by the Art by Megan Studio. This podcast was created, produced, recorded and researched by Megan and her Friend and edited by Hanna Nakano. The views in this recording are the personal views of the co-hosts and their guests. Their commentary is provided for general information purposes only and do not constitute financial, investment, tax, legal or accounting advice nor does it constitute an offer or solicitation to buy or sell any art or financial products. In other words, we're doing this for fun and we hope you enjoy it, but you should still call your account. And your mother.

    [00:44:29] Megan: I love that ending so much.

    [00:44:29] Friend: Isn't that so good?

    [00:44:31] Megan: But really.

    [00:44:33] Friend: I tried to...

    [fade out]

Third and Fourth